200m deep down

[efattah]

I think I may have identified the source of the argument here.

Let's compare the 100m CW and 200m NL dives:

- Murat and Stepanek may have both done 100m CW in training. However, given that they RESPECT other official dives, NEITHER DIVER CLAIMED TO HAVE THE WORLD RECORD. This is a very important point. In Murat's case it is even more extreme, he doesn't even want people to know if he did 100m CW or 192m NL.

- In Musimu's case, after training dives to 200m & 209m, he CLAIMS to hold the world record in this event (he even claims he would have broken the world record 39 times if he did it 1m at a time), and he claims it as a greater accomplishment than all other official records before him, even though he himself FAILED to do the dive on the OFFICIAL day. Like someone mentioned, if it had been an official event, the result would be no official record, because official records are done on announced days.

So, in my view, if a diver comes forward and hints that he has done XXm in training, and perhaps even posts stories & witnesses, that is GREAT, and we can all celebrate in his accomplishment and imagine what our bodies are capable of. And we can congratulate the diver.

However, in my view, when a diver does a result in training and comes forward and boastfully claims it as THE world record which is greater performance than all other records, it is an insult, because the person has clearly forgotten that doing a dive on a specific day at a specific time with specific people is harder and less likely to succeed, and somewhat insults those who managed to do that feat before. Since Patrick was doing unofficial dives, he should compare his dives to other unofficial dives. So he was really trying to break Murat's 192m. Yet, Musimu even claimed his 185m dive as a world record.

So, when Stepanek did 100m in CW in training, and DIDN'T claim it as a world record, I sent an e-mail congratulating him. After Musimu did 200m and claimed to be the greatest diver and world record holder, I was less enthused about sending congratulations. That doesn't mean that I don't believe the dive. It means that it affects my attitude about the dive and the diver.

 

[Merlin]

Agreed Eric, as usual the truth lies somewhere in between.

 

[gianpaoloc]

I think Eric perfectly got the point. I trust Musimu as I generally trust everyone, I am very excited about seeing the video of its dive, but I do not particularly like its claim of being THE world record holder. World records, by definition are something officially recognized. At the same time, I understand there are money reasons about his claim, and this is why I tend to excuse him

Lets go Patrick, you have achieved a very important result, first of all for yourself, even if you cannot claim being the world record holder. Now go on and fix another official day for your official record or avoid doing claims you cannot reasonably support. In any case we will remember about your dive, in our memory you will remain the first known to have broken the 200m limit barrier in training, and we will remember about you even when someone else will move the official limit above 200 m (with all the additional difficulties Eric mentioned).

My two cents
G.

 

[samdive]

I also agree entirely with Eric's point. I would be the first to shake Patrick's hand and say well done, great dive. What I would not do is acknowledge that he has a world record.

As for my contraversial quote - maybe I should twist it around and see if makes more sense to you the other way..

"if you are interested in being deeper/longer/further - why are you NOT interested in competing on an official footing?" to me one does not make sense without the other.

Yes of course I buy a beer for a student who does well and congratulate everyone I dive with on good dives - but to be honest, most of the dives we do together are to some extent in line with AIDA rules - I would not for example congratulate someone on a new Constant Weight PB if in fact they had pulled up the line.. it might be a nice dive but it wouldn't be a CW PB.

I am not doubting Patrick did these dives, far from it - I have great respect for Patrick - and for Suunto his sponsors. Patrick was there the first day I ever went down a rope to see how far I could get, and I did it in a monofin I had borrowed from him... what I do doubt is his "right" to tell everyone he has a "world record". I just think it is sad that he did not invite along a couple of judges - it would have been easy to do.

Sam

 

[Alun]

"if you are interested in being deeper/longer/further - why are you NOT interested in competing on an official footing?" to me one does not make sense without the other.

i think your viewpoint depends on whether you tend to be competitive by nature. those who are competitive probably feel they need to prove what they can do to others, and directly compare their achievements with others through competition. those who are not/less competitive by nature are more interested in their own personal achievements, so a training dive is just as valid and important as a competition/record dive.

 

[bam bam]

Eric pretty much hits the nail on the head :duh

Take a look at Athletics, the same thing happens there, for a world record to be broken there are certain factors that have to be met, like the wind speed, i recall that someone broke a record, but due to the wind speed it was denied! it also has to be broke on 'official' tracks not the local behind the supermarket! Just to so that the point is truely made, a known high jumper (a few years back) had in training jumped over 5cm higher than the world record, but the jump wasn't made the world record, why because thing need to be done officially, because:

I know this has been said before, it's so that people can compete on an equal setting.

ok the rules may not be universaly like, but everyone has to play by those rules making the same point as above

It's still an impressive dive, but is it the world record, sorry but for me when people ask i say loic has the record, but someone has done more!!!!

 

[OceanMan]

Eric you are right here; you're the man.

 

[Walrus]

In Patrick's case I agree, he may have done the deepest no-limits but it isn't a official world record. But as already pointed out it may partly be pressure from sponsors/media where his world record claim comes from.

- Murat and Stepanek may have both done 100m CW in training. However, given that they RESPECT other official dives, NEITHER DIVER CLAIMED TO HAVE THE WORLD RECORD. This is a very important point. In Murat's case it is even more extreme, he doesn't even want people to know if he did 100m CW or 192m NL.

In Australia Seb Murat has gotten a lot of media exposure, both tv and newspapers. And yes in more then one such article it was claimed that he set/broke official world records. One I remember was the dynamic "record" 3 years ago. Now wether Seb actually said this or not, or was a media 'misquote' I don't know. I think he was trying to get sponsors at the time.

When there are sponsors involved then of course you want the media to say "Best in the world". Specially in Patrick's case when the money has already been spent. Do you think with the huge amounts of money involved, the sponsors would be happy with "Oh yeh I did a great PB, deeper then anyone else but it's not a world record"
I think in that case you are really damned if you do and damned if you dont. :hmm


Cheers,
Wal

 

[BennyB]

I think we can argue this until the end of time, but no-one's opinion will change regardless of what is said here.

Everyone who has contributed to this discussion has had some knowledge of freediving and of the various groups associated with it, and perhaps the politics attached with these groups. However I would imagine that media outlets wouldn't care less whether a dive was performed under the rules of AIDA, CMAS or no association at all. To them, 209m is 209m.

A couple of weeks ago the Guiness Book of Records was on tv here in Australia showing Pipin's 2 breath no-limits dive. Even though no freediver I know would consider a 2 breath dive as conventional freediving, the media love the glamour that is associated with it, and therefore he is tagged as the best freediver in the world. The best at what? From that example I would say he is the best at doing a 2 breath no-limits dive. Joe Public would say the best freediver. It's so subjective.

Personally, I will continue to acknowledge and congratulate a good performance when I see it, whether it is done within the rules of a body or not. But if you want to compare performances, strictly speaking we should keep the apples with the apples and the oranges with the oranges.

Cheers,
Ben

ps. I read plenty of debate about who is the "first" to achieve 100m, 200m etc, whilst I am very happy for those people to achieve these milestones, I am more happy that they have proven it can be done.

 

[tylerz]

Sam,

To me that does not clarify things for the nature of the conversation in general. The meaning is the same. It only works if I assume you are only referring to the case of somebody in Patrik's shoes, where the individual was very public and comparisons were drawn between official dives by this person. However you referred to people in general throughout your explanations and comments, which us on the other side of the fence are addressing. I think most of us are not looking to recognise Patrik's performance as "THE WORLD RECORD" globally. But it is "a world record". Guiness would take it as such, so everybody has the right to claim it is. It is not an "AIDA World Record" certainly. I likewise agree with Eric's comments because they are specific to Patrik's case and the idea of people taking that approach of publicity. Just as Patrik has no right to tell everybody else they must do their "World Records" his way. Nobody else has the right to tell him he has to do it their way. But come to a comparison then there is no point to it but for subjective fun, explorative comparison; they are two different things, one no less more important and exciting than the other.

 

[Merlin]

Here is an interesting observation.... a WWII german Uboat had a maximum depth of approximately 230m which really puts this dive into perspective!

 

[samdive]

Tyler, Alun et al - I guess it depends if you are looking to say that you got deeper/longer/further than you personally have done before - and are being pleased and wanting others to congratulate you on a PERSONAL best or PERSONAL growth or if you want to compare that to others and say "I don't compete but I am the best freediver in Outer Mongolia" or wherever. Fine to keep out of the official environment and enjoy your own growth but if you want to get into the race with others, then I believe that you should do that in an official environment - comp or record attempt - so you are being judged against the same benchmark. It is not fair on the people who go to the trouble to learn the rules, go to a comp or organise a record attempt and do things by the book - if people all round them are full of "Oh yeah, I do more than that in my secret dive site with my one mate", "oh yeah I do that time/depth/distance in training all the time but I don't approve of competitions", "oh yeah I just freedive for love of the ocean so I don't compete but I go a lot further than any of you".....

getting cynical now but have heard it all too many times.... there seems to be a bit of a thing about being "too cool to compete" or "too cool to need a judge" and that makes me mad!

If you want to be quietly pleased with your own performance, do it in your own way and don't go on about it... if you want the world to recognise it, do it officially...

I'll shut up now....

S

 

[jome]

I agree

-A person who's been to whatever depth should not be walking around boasting "a record" if it was not recognized by some kind of trusted and generally accepted organization.

-However, I have no problem with someone just saying "I dove to x meters just to see if I could". It's a matter of personal preference to believe it or not. In the case of Sebastien Murat, the claim, to me, is credible. But if I personally made a claim of a 120m cw dive, I doubt many would take it seriously...

Now, if you wanted to fake a 200m nolimits dive, like some one suggested earlier, sure you could. Some clever video editing, posting a few made up profiles...Who would know? It's not like people are actually waiting at the bottom to see if you really do arrive.

I'm not however cynical enough to believe that anyone would go though the trouble. There's not that much money in the freediving record busting business...So for me, Patrick is the guy who first broke 200m in a no-limits dive in training...And that's all he did.

Sebastien Murat is the guy who according to some rumours first broke 100m in CW in training and has done a 192m no-limits dive. I never heard these claims from the man him self, so I regard them as rumours. Impressive rumours that they are...

 

[SanSan]

@tylerz

I don't exactly agree with U. In my oppinion u can't claim this to be the world record and be sure that Guinnes wouldn't and won't recognize it at such. Guinnes is also an organisation that has rules in setting records. Maybe they are a bit loose but there still are rules. And Patrick can't just walk there with a suunto and a video tape saying I have the WR put me in the book. Imagine what records we would have if this was possible. Hell i would have a bunch of records :duh .
See there is allways some organisation that has to verify the record to be recognised... Wether Guinnes, Aida, cmas.... I'm sure we agree on this one?

Still this doesn't change the fact he has gone the deepest. But that's a point of beliving it.
So no WR there.

 

[Billextreme]

This is Patrick press release... sent to some organizations around the world.

...someone is pulling our legs here.

regards,
Bill
...........................................................................................

Free Diving No Limit New World Record 209.60MSW, Hurghada

We are pleased to enclose press release issued today by free diving
world champion Patrick Musimu
________________________________________
I would like to thank the Governor of the Red Sea and the different
parties which helped us to make of this project an incredible
success. The Red Sea Association for Diving and Watersports and the
E.T.A.A. have done a tremendous effort to pull out this project to
the end.
The Ultimate Dive set at 209.6 meters on the 30th of June, has
already struck the whole diving and sports world. Numerous media
crew were present to witness this dive. This press came from France,
Belgium, Poland, Russia, Egypt, Germany (TV5, RTBF, Thalassa, VTM,
Tauchen..) Documentaries will be aired advertising what have been
achieved here in Hurghada during these last weeks.
This record without precedent has been ratified thanks to tremendous
effort and support of technology. As no dive computers able to
display a 200m dive were available on the market, the international
computer company SUUNTO designed 2 unique special dive computers for
the occasion. Mr Jim Clymer, SUUNTO European business manager
himself, came in Hurghada and on the 4th of July during the
international press conference, he displayed in front of all the
international TV cameras the dive profile of the 209.6m.Moreover,
the entire dive has been recorded on video by a camera placed on the
machine (the sled) that brought me down to the depth.

At no point, AIDA Egypt or AIDA International had to play a role in
this record. It was a clear choice from the beginning. A free diving
No Limit record of this magnitude, almost 40 meters below the
current record, could not be ratified and be in the hands of a
common sport association. This record was challenging science and
involved many risks that only a professional organisation composed
by a professional team could insure its safety and success.

Thanks to all of the parties involved we succeeded in marking
History. TVs, magazines and news papers have already qualified this
dive as `a historical dive'. For ever, people remember this dive
that took place in the Red Sea.


Patrick Musimu
10-07-05

 

[jome]

Heh, the part you highlighted is just funny...What the hell?

 

[bam bam]

But it is "a world record". Guiness would take it as such,

Sorry but even Guiness has some rule that have to be met:

"If you tell us that you want to break an existing record we'll send you the current record details and the relevant rules and guidelines for you to follow when you attempt to break that record." (From the official site
http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/)

 

[Panos Lianos]

Interesting press release........

Maybe he just did break a record after all. But not a freediving record.

 

[pehtran]

wow, how many tactical mistakes can one man make?! just when I thought his oposition ran out of amunition, he gives away another load... we can agree he made the deepest dive but I think we can also agree he is not a particulary good role model for a young freedivers.

 

[Alun]

we can agree he made the deepest dive but I think we can also agree he is not a particulary good role model for a young freedivers.

i find this statement incredible! i think what he has achieved is an inspiration. it's clear that he's not really interested in the small insular world of freediving politics and rules, and he should not be condemned for that. he seems to focus on what's really important (in my view anyway)... pushing the frontiers of freediving performance and our understanding of breath hold diving.