2014 lunocet

[REVAN]

Ron I'm sorry to say, but the current published data is not significant at all. The swimmers are beginners in mono finning. At most we can gather how much time they need to learn the foil and monofinning, and or how tolerable the foil design is for poor technique.

The best data I expect from AA, because he already can do a nice 160m+ dynamic, proof of that he has monofin ability.
To have some real data I would like to have seasoned high level freedivers and finswimmers explore and test the range and abilities of the new tools, including yours. I have seen a video of Natalia Molchanova swim with your product, demonstrating your design (with limited foil training) is right up there with the hyperfin.

In the end what many want to know, can I go further with the new design?

Though efficiency may be king, new features may win our attention and become a determining factor in our choice.
For instance consider: comfort, portability, adjust-ability, durability, compatibility, manoeuvrability.
When you consider these factors in the final choice, the new foil designs are starting to shine.

We can enjoy the foil porn (got to be a great search term to be caught with while on the job), but what we need is a AA's report and videos hopefully including a dynamic pb. At this moment he to me appears the most qualified Pro Lunocet owner.

This is an extremely small sample statistic and the swimmers have various levels of experience. It does not make for a good metric but it is all we have to go with so far. The data is not completely insignificant, but it needs to be viewed in light of these deficiencies.

As you and I had pointed out, there are expected differences in levels of monofin technique between these swimmers. The linear extrapolation for the 25m kkg data ends up with a 38% increase in time and 50% more kicks. This is larger than the usual 30% performance hit I assume for bad vs. good monofin technique. I can't think of any reason why the Pro should be performing any worse and so I'm thinking I should take another look at my assumptions regarding performance losses due to monofin technique, or perhaps the Lunocet is just more sensitive to technique than other fins I have worked with. It just does not look promising to me that the Pro is going to demonstrate a significant performance improvement over the 2014 classic, and this falls inline with my prediction based on my experiences building and testing monofins. I would like to see a good review done under controlled conditions, and perhaps some day I will be proven wrong (after all it is only a prediction backed up by some loosey-goosey data).

I'm a little confused, maybe I missed something. Why the hush hush on apneaaddict's results with the fin? AA, is your testing done for someone? DB? Ted? or just for knowledge, more like Fondueset? Whats the delay?

It seems the classics's review has been delayed to come out at the same time as the Pro's review. According to AA's post of March 25th the Pro's review should have been completed around the 1st of April. Now, I figure we must be waiting for DB to publish.

 

[neurodoc]

Since it appears that attempts are being made to derive comparative data from my swims, I should share the details/excuses that are the reality expressed in those swims ;-) that should be factored in if that data is to have any significance whatsoever (and it doesn't-I'll prove that with another video of better swims when I get to it).

1. Poor arm position, secondary to spending a few months on a computer instead of at the gym (I've been writing a book)
2. A spine that didn't seem to want to move properly that day and can do better (dehydrated, actually, plus the sitting)
3. Lots of body hair. The one time I swam with my glide fin and a full suit was almost magical in its difference. I hate shaving.
4. Incorrect weighting; can breathe better than I did when I made the neck collar, bigger breath and more air now. Repeated kicking is needed to stay submerged. Glide phase is not horizontal due to this. Glide is waaay better on half a breath, but I didn't feel like doing that at the time. I haven't decided on how to make a better collar, and don't want to just pack in more birdshot as if it ever breaks in the pool...my monofinning days are over in that pool!
5. Not really trying to either glide far, kick less, or go particularly fast. Even 17 second length started with a glide and was far from a maximal effort. These were just swims to show the fin exists and works, nothing more.
6. Using this approach, it should be possible to take any fin, select two swimmers of different ability on that day, and compare their swims then interpolate a conclusion that a) the fin must be getting slower, because swimmer #2 was slower with it. Or b) the fin must be getting faster, because swimmer #2 was faster with it (if that were the case or the swim order reversed).

Actually, I would say that there is much better empirical evidence that size does matter. With monofins! staying on topic... Using the same swimmer. In post #704 on the Extreme Dolfinism thread (which I also read and enjoy) Fondueset says "Blade: I've run this same fin with about a 26 inch blade - the performance difference is very noticeable. One of the advantages of this design is you can tweak the blade width with little-to-no drag penalty. Based on the changes I noticed when I put on the larger blade I think 32 inches will bring at least parity."

This would indicate that changing the size of the foil blade does make a ""very noticeable" difference. This statement is quite consistent with what I feel and experience; the two Lunocet fins are very different. The Classic is amazingly good for how small the flukes are, and excels at sustained speed. The Pro has more power though, and works better for me for KKG swimming. Trying to say that size matters with one fin and not the other is poor logic/poor science, until valid testing/comparison data is obtained.

I do not know the content of AA's upcoming review, but I'm looking forward to it as well. I do not know how the Lunocet Pro will compare with any fins other than my own. I think it will do well, but it's just my impression! Otherwise, in the interest of collecting useful data and making meaningful conclusions, we should wait and not grasp at straws to try to make statements that there is no data to support. Unless some of you want to vacation in Arkansas, bring fins, help train me, use my Pro/let me try your fin, bring a GoPro and do some real evaluations. That sounds like a good time to me! I don't get vacation to go elsewhere and play till I finish writing/editing my book...so, back to work!

 

[REVAN]

Thanks for the details on your swim. I think we all appreciate your contributions, both in words and in videos. Every little bit is useful and entertaining.

Increasing fin span and increasing fin chord are two different things. They are not hydrodynamically equivalent. The first allows the fin to push more water, the second allows for pushing the same water harder. Fondueset is looking at fins of different span with identical chord, the Pro has the same span as the 2014 classic but with increased chord length. Increasing both dimensions proportionally, will tend to scale everything proportionally, the exceptions being the things that are sensitive to Reynolds number (i.e. - details of the flow down in the boundary layer).

I have no doubt that the Pro can generate more thrust than the the 2014 classic. More surface area means more lift force, but it will also mean more induced drag. I'm pretty sure that the extra thrust will come in handy for depth diving. I'm less certain that it will have a large impact on dynamics where the forces required are simply not as large as they are for depth diving. This holds true for the DOL-Fin as well. Where the fin size has the largest impact is for the OW diving, in a thick wetsuit, and with a lot of up and down swimming. Dynamics in a pool are less sensitive to the fin size.

I hate grasping at straws and find the waiting frustrating. It is just in my nature to look at the videos and try to understand what I am seeing. I think I know more about how monofins work than the average Joe, but I'm still learning. The Lunocets are interesting case studies that I would like to understand better. AA's review is proving to be as elusive as MH370; and it is more frustrating still to know that the 2014 classic's review has been done for months and is being held back for whatever deliberate reasons.

 

[neurodoc]

I spent some pool time today experimenting with the Lunocet Pro, swimming on a neutral breath (not a full one) to find a level that would make me neutrally buoyant and then working on lengthening my glide phase. I was able to easily cross the pool's 25 yards with three kick, kick, glide cycles. I made it a couple of times with two kick-kick-glides and an extra half kick, and the best one was two kick/half kick and one kick. Still, with no skinsuit or wetsuit. For me, that's by far a personal best! was happy with it. I feel I can do much better; did not have one length where something didn't go wrong a little (sank to bottom once, caught myself with poor arm position again, etc.) and yet it was great. I was totally relaxed at the far end and did not feel like I'd done much. The pool was crowded, and I did not trust the little kids at the shallow end to stay out of my way if I turned in the shallow end, so I kept it to one length at a time for practice. I can see why the longer dynamics typically use a kick and glide technique now! just need a skinsuit now...

 

[Kars]

Great, job Neurodoc, love to hear your reporting.

I find it often very helpful to vary in speed and technique.
You'll find that with a suit and good weighting you'll need even less energy to glide. I expect AA will demonstrate that.
I too nearly always have other unaware pool users (sometimes their merely talking) to avoid and fear when submerged. It will feel like a liberation when you have a lane to yourself, and you can with confidence enjoy the feelings of cruising relaxation.
From your video's: try to rotate your hips in just before you lift your bud up. Your foil should not be pushed down on the down stroke, but rather push your bud and upwards. It's more like pushing instead of kicking. - someone should make a high frame rate video, spelling this out.

 

[Chipswim]

Great to be here when ever one is improving at an increasing rate!

Kars! That motion you just described.... The butt moves up instead of fin moving down concept. I'm sure Fondue wrote something similar.... May be beyond my grasp so far but I'm trying to get it!

Neurodoc! Love to read your book when it's done. Any hints what you are writing about?

Cheer up On shaving.......... Swimmers shave to achieve a bit more glide. Bicyclists shave so it hurts less when removing bandages ¡ Great swim this morning. Did shave some bare parts hoping to glide a little better....

Great you are gliding so well without a suit. I'm not sure I glide at all without one ¡

I'm liking the Tyr Torque Pro skin suit in the pool so far. Experiences gliding much as you just described. The material is comfy yet compressing. It dries really quickly. .. Seems like it will last in the pool. Not hot to wear. Easy on and off. The decals do promptly shred because they don't stretch with the fabric. Amazon had the best deal.

ID say not to be afraid to order on the tight end of the sizing chart. The XL is supposed to fit 218# and up. I'm fine with it at 250#. The material has remarkable stretch range.

 

[neurodoc]

Thanks for the support everyone. It is a great sport! Yes, thanks, Kars-must lift the butt up! when everything is just right I can feel that, but can't get it every time yet. Working on it Chip, I'm thinking of trying the Yingfa suit. It's $149 sharkskin speed suit, covers arms and legs. I think it might help me get more out of the Lunocet Pro. I have a blog about the book; thesymbiontfactorblog.com
Keep swimming!

 

[REVAN]

...From your video's: try to rotate your hips in just before you lift your bud up. Your foil should not be pushed down on the down stroke, but rather push your bud and upwards. It's more like pushing instead of kicking. - someone should make a high frame rate video, spelling this out.

You have to rotate the hips like a belly dancer!!!!!

Try this one for inspiration:

 

[Chipswim]

Very efficient description!

 

[REVAN]

For you guys that have both the original and the Pro Lunocets; do you have any sense if the original works better than the Pro for small amplitude slow cruising, or do you think the Pro is better for both that and the more energetic faster swimming?

I'm still brainstorming here, but perhaps Neurodoc's metrics from the video were not so much an issue with technique, but rather a condition of being a little too relaxed in the fin stroke to get the fin into it's sweet spot of operation. Perhaps the Pro just needs a little more amplitude to fully activate the larger foil. If someone wants to take a look at that and share your thoughts, I'd appreciate the feedback.

 

[Chipswim]

I have the 2014 classic and it's immediate predecessor. In line for a Pro. No doubt the same fin can act great or lousy with a few adjustments. I remember you writing similar observations about your designs... Applies here too. For me it is a sign of a Lunocet that is too loose if it demands large amplitude to function. Good news if that is the case is that it is fairly easy to adjust and there would be lots of improvement available. I worry some folks had a brush with greatness trying out a poorly adjusted set up.

 

[Triton1715]

I have to admit, I'm becoming a bit curious as time is going on. Namely, I'm wondering the purpose for the delay in AA's review (I thought it was supposed to be released last week or so). There is also the issue that the board has quite a few complaints about having purchased fins X months ago which still hadn't shipped. They were met with responses from Ted assuring them of a tracking number within 2 days, give or take. In theory therefore, there should be at least a few Pros in the hands of DB members. . . yet, not a peep from any of them. . . ? I'm not quite sure what to make of all that. . . ?

 

[Kars]

For sure it's a product that can greatly benefit from a good monofin swimming and foil adjustment tutorial. Especially when monofins are going to be marketed more mainstream.

In regard to the report delay, maybe it's because AA is waiting for Ted to have his production ready, anticipating a boatload of new orders. I do not understand why Ted is not investing in 1 person to do the shop and deal with the customers?

For Ted's future versions of the Lunocet, I recommend not to do any pre-selling. It will save Ted and the customers a lot of headaches.

 

[Apneaddict]

Your patience will soon be rewarded with lots of monofin porn. Write-ups, pictures and video galore. I expect you will likely see some this week.

And yes - good monofin technique is paramount to getting performance out of any monofin.

I'm always working on mine. Never good enough... But always getting better.

Fondueset has a technique that we would all benefit in trying to emulate!

 

[Ted Ciamillo]

I am shipping another 15 units today and I think it covers all forum member customers.

 

[Kars]

Ok, here's some lovely monofinning technique to study:

 

[noa]

Pro is in my hands as of this morning ! Still waiting for shoes and will report as soon as I have swam with it.
Until it sees it's first drop of water, I can confirm that the design, materials and construction of the fin are quite amazing. It's certainly an engineering achievement by the looks of it. Of course I can say nothing before some water sessions, but I would even be happy to just have this fin hanging on the wall so I can stare at it...

 

[Apneaddict]

I tried to take a Lunocet from the shallow end, to the deep end of the pool in my hands, so that I could put it on at the bottom of the deepend.

NOA:
Try swimming with it in your hands and gently oscillate it up and down.

Mine had shoes attached for me to hold onto, but it was amazing the thrust that it generated, even in this "configuration".

Also, just drop it in the pool and watch it glide across the pool on its own!!

So weird (foreign) to see / feel, even IF you understand the physics involved.

 

[neurodoc]

This is gonna be fun! Having used the Pro for a couple weeks now, it is exciting to see some of you get yours. noa, now you know what I meant by "eye candy". It is just gorgeous to look at and hold... but it's even better to swim with

 

[marginatus]

I am shipping another 15 units today and I think it covers all forum member customers.

Ted Ciamillo, please send my tracking number...