2014 lunocet

[Fondueset]

View attachment 38214

Such a sexy picture.

Anyways here are some numbers for you. All swims were for 50m straight, no turns. 4 laps(reps) each to ensure replicability.
Every swim was identical. I.e identical perceived efficiency and the numbers below had almost 0 variability between them (with the exception of the luno)

Rocket fin: 8x double kick glide. 38s
X20: 9x double kick glide. 40s
LunocetClassic: 11-12x double kick glide. 50s




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Hi Lil Jon. Out of curiosity - what is the stiffness of your rocketfin? I've not used the lunocet - but your numbers correlate very well with mine using the Dolfin Orca - I suspect my Orca has a smaller blade than your x20 - but your findings make it appear that they may not be that far apart in performance.

I've tested a model called the X-22, which has a streamlined float and some other mods - but someone bought it before I could do hard core pool tests as I've been focused on the Orca. (also - the pool guy who managed the pool chemistry left and visibility now sucks).

For reference heres a split video of 75s with my hyperfin and the orca. I am swimming more slowly than you were and, obviously, am not using double kicks in these two videos. (the downstroke on my hyperfin is inhibited due to a bad toe injury - perceived effort was just a tad more for the Dol-fin)

 

[Chipswim]

Hi Lil Jon. Out of curiosity - what is the stiffness of your rocketfin? I've not used the lunocet - but your numbers correlate very well with mine using the Dolfin Orca - I suspect my Orca has a smaller blade than your x20 - but your findings make it appear that they may not be that far apart in performance.

I've tested a model called the X-22, which has a streamlined float and some other mods - but someone bought it before I could do hard core pool tests as I've been focused on the Orca. (also - the pool guy who managed the pool chemistry left and visibility now sucks).

For reference heres a split video of 75s with my hyperfin and the orca. I am swimming more slowly than you were and, obviously, am not using double kicks in these two videos. (the downstroke on my hyperfin is inhibited due to a bad toe injury - perceived effort was just a tad more for the Dol-fin)

Beautiful swimming as usual. For my not so numerical mind the split screen comparison really helps! More of that!!!

 

[cdavis]

lil jon:

I've been waiting impatently for someone who has both a luno and a Dolfin. What blade width is yours?

Thinking in terms of maneuverability, how do the luno classic and the x20 compare? and how do they compare to the hyperfin? I'm thinking here of how easy it is to move the fin around, not how easy it is to turn or stroke the fin. Does it feel like there is any delay between when you start to move and when the fin gets moving? Any sense of being "anchored" before you start moving? These questions relate to how the fins compare to bifins.

Acceleration: From what I've been able to deduce from the various comments, the acceleration of the luno in the first few seconds after you start moving seems to be less than the x20. Do you find the same? How do both compare to the hyperfin?

Does your x20 have the added flotation? If not, which is more negative, the luno or the x20?

Thanks

Connor

 

[Fondueset]

lil jon:

I've been waiting impatently for someone who has both a luno and a Dolfin. What blade width is yours?

Thinking in terms of maneuverability, how do the luno classic and the x20 compare? and how do they compare to the hyperfin? I'm thinking here of how easy it is to move the fin around, not how easy it is to turn or stroke the fin. Does it feel like there is any delay between when you start to move and when the fin gets moving? Any sense of being "anchored" before you start moving? These questions relate to how the fins compare to bifins.

Acceleration: From what I've been able to deduce from the various comments, the acceleration of the luno in the first few seconds after you start moving seems to be less than the x20. Do you find the same? How do both compare to the hyperfin?

Does your x20 have the added flotation? If not, which is more negative, the luno or the x20?

Thanks

Connor

Hi Connor - I can answer one part - the hyperfin out accelerates the dol-fin. The Dol-fin accelerates better under way - you can see how the second kick of a double kick results in a surge of acceleration.

 

[Chipswim]

Lil Jon!

With flat, foil, & fluke all in your stable of fins..... You are the most interesting swimmer in the world!

While you are feeding us details could you mention the stiffness setting of your Luno? How many pins and where? Have you used the coin idea (center of photo)

for quick centering at stroke extremities?

 

[lil jon]

Thanks for the questions guys. here goes:

Revan:
"Do you mean that the kicks across all fin platforms were given the same perceived effort? Can we assume that in each case a kick cycle represents a fairly uniform quanta of energy expenditure?"

Yes that is exactly what I meant. That said, the resistance of swimming with the Lunocet feels like swimming with short fins or no fins. It felt like I was using less energy with the Lunocet per kick but at the end of the dive I knew that I was expending the same amount. This is probably due to the energy used per undulation.

Fondueset:
Stiffness of my rocketfin (hyper-type fin)
It's stiffness no. 2.

cdavis:
In terms of maneuverability, I have not actually tried to compare it but from my experience, I think the Lunocet and x20 are very comparable. In terms of cosmetics, the x20 seems to be holding out better. the sleek look on the lunocet's rubber does not hold up well to abrasions on sand or pool walls.

Acceleration: The Lunocet loses out in this department. It take considerably more time and effort to bring the fin up to speed. If I had to push the lunocet to do 50m in 40s, it would be the same as me pushing a 30s lap on a hyperfin or x20.
I couldn't really tell a difference in acceleration between the hyperfin and the x20. I honestly can't tell if the difference in time and no. of strokes is a function of speed or acceleration. (Fondueset just answered this. Thanks for that! I didn't know that either)

Buoyancy: Nope, no added flotation. Both seem to sink at a similar pace so I'm guessing they're similar. If you're looking to do it in the ocean,I'm guessing the 50g-100g difference won't make much of a difference.

 

[Fondueset]

Thanks for the questions guys. here goes:

Revan:
"Do you mean that the kicks across all fin platforms were given the same perceived effort? Can we assume that in each case a kick cycle represents a fairly uniform quanta of energy expenditure?"

Yes that is exactly what I meant. That said, the resistance of swimming with the Lunocet feels like swimming with short fins or no fins. It felt like I was using less energy with the Lunocet per kick but at the end of the dive I knew that I was expending the same amount. This is probably due to the energy used per undulation.

Fondueset:
Stiffness of my rocketfin (hyper-type fin)
It's stiffness no. 2.

cdavis:
In terms of maneuverability, I have not actually tried to compare it but from my experience, I think the Lunocet and x20 are very comparable. In terms of cosmetics, the x20 seems to be holding out better. the sleek look on the lunocet's rubber does not hold up well to abrasions on sand or pool walls.

Acceleration: The Lunocet loses out in this department. It take considerably more time and effort to bring the fin up to speed. If I had to push the lunocet to do 50m in 40s, it would be the same as me pushing a 30s lap on a hyperfin or x20.
I couldn't really tell a difference in acceleration between the hyperfin and the x20. I honestly can't tell if the difference in time and no. of strokes is a function of speed or acceleration. (Fondueset just answered this. Thanks for that! I didn't know that either)

Buoyancy: Nope, no added flotation. Both seem to sink at a similar pace so I'm guessing they're similar. If you're looking to do it in the ocean,I'm guessing the 50g-100g difference won't make much of a difference.

Lil Jon, your observations are concise and articulate. I wish i'd got more pool time with the x22 - it is more buoyant that the x20 for sure. Do the rocket fins get stiffer or softer with smaller numbers? I know my Starfin - which is very similar - gets softer toward 1.

 

[lil jon]

This is how I have my pic setting. My lunocet came with only 2 pins. The pin on the far left is the stabilize the "slop" I mentioned long ago and the pin in the far right keeps it as the stiffest setting.

Nope I didn't use a coin. It kept falling out haha. And I wasn't keen on gluing it in


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[Triton1715]

Lil Jon, your observations are concise and articulate. I wish i'd got more pool time with the x22 - it is more buoyant that the x20 for sure. Do the rocket fins get stiffer or softer with smaller numbers? I know my Starfin - which is very similar - gets softer toward 1.

Anytime you want to use it again, let me know and I'll bring it up to TC and put it on loan for a week or two.

 

[lil jon]

Hey Fondueset, the rocketfins stiffness gets smaller with each number.

1- soft
2- medium soft
3- medium
4- medium hard
5- hard

 

[Fondueset]

Anytime you want to use it again, let me know and I'll bring it up to TC and put it on loan for a week or two.

Hey Triton, I pretty much have the picture from my open water dives. The only thing missing is pool video and that's no longer possible regardless. Just take some time with that beauty and let us know what you think over in the Extreme Dolfinism thread.

 

[Triton1715]

Hey Triton, I pretty much have the picture from my open water dives. The only thing missing is pool video and that's no longer possible regardless. Just take some time with that beauty and let us know what you think over in the Extreme Dolfinism thread.

Will do! Just so you know, the offer stands if you ever get the bug

 

[Chipswim]

Lil Jon!

May I kindly suggest that you are being too polite to your Lunocet! Let it know you mean business!!! You can't see it when you are swimming! We can't see it if you censor the mutilation photos ¡

If it is acting like that it is probably parked when you are not testing it. Not good!

Please consider putting a pin in each hole and glue a coin top and bottom or better yet do AA's "invisible" washers under the plate solution = no visible modification. It is very important that the rubber spring is slightly preloaded. It should never be totally relaxed. This eliminates any wasted swimming motion. It should now feel much more alive and lively!

Lay a power saw and drill near it over night.... as a threat. If it doesn't act much better tomorrow..... I'd be willing to have a word with it personally!

The thing should accelerate like a scared water bunny!!!!

I plan to lay my Pro face to face with my Classic the first night so it knows to answer the bell ready to swim the very first morning! That way I won't be tempted to hot rod it!

Kiwi "Camp Dry" makes the rubber look new and lasts a week or two. Shoes in the photo are the second pair on that Lunocet. They work fine but you can see my toes are wearing through the shoes.

 

[Chipswim]

This may seem like fine tuning but I've found it to be quite important... Just left of center in the photo you can see the pointed leading edge of the fluke is not quite centered in this relaxed position. You see less of the white pin above that point than below. That is probably because there is some free movement before the spring gets engaged in the movement or worse yet it is forcefully held off center for some reason. The ten minute project described above will likely center that relaxed position.

Please visually check that detail! I've noticed that the Lunocets perform their very best when the fin returns on its own perfectly to dead center!

I know several of you are about to swim this system for the first times. I'd prefer to be reading about big smiles by the second day. The very first hour is pure discovery. If you feel you need to dial in any adjustments.... Want those to be immediately successful so you are in full reward mode by hour 2.

 

[REVAN]

View attachment 38227... or worse yet it is forcefully held off center for some reason....

Given the orientation of the floor in the picture, that may just be gravity offsetting the fluke. If so, it won't be an issue when in water. That was your picture lilJon, so what do you think?

By the way, I didn't realize you had an X-20 as well as the Lunocet and the Rocket fin. It is a nice surprise though, and we are fortunate to have all the hardware in one place for comparison. You are a monofin pioneer lilJon.

 

[Chipswim]

The forces created by our swimming motions are remarkably powerful. One of the challenges we have thankfully left in the past was snapping equipment right in half while swimming. That is the reason I'm SO impressed with current levels of durability.

In order to test deflection of my current Luno when it is just right I have to put it over my knee and pull with both hands. It does move a bunch in the water.

If they "fall" out of position the fin will feel like there is is almost nothing back there on your feet....Exact As described. Especially at the extremities of the stroke... During transitions.

I hate that! I'd get out and fix it immediately.... I call that undesirable condition "fin flop" ¡

To help understand how important this is... Hmmmmmm.... It would be like shooting a bow and arrow if the string didn't get tight until you started pulling the arrow back...... Or driving an old car down the road that had 1/4 turn of play in the steering..... Like that... Not fun ¡

You could call it fin ED instead of fin flop. Don't want any of it.

 

[REVAN]

...If they "fall" out of position the fin will feel like there is is almost nothing back there on your feet....Exact As described. Especially at the extremities of the stroke... During transitions.

I hate that! I'd get out and fix it immediately.... I call that undesirable condition "fin flop" ¡
...

In lilJon's picture, it looks like he has the pins in the first and last of the 4 available holes. Isn't that the stiffest configuration in which to place the two pins in the elastic spring?

Making it stiffer, it seems, would require getting into hardware modification (adding extra wood dowels, plastic zip-ties, etc...).

 

[cdavis]

Wish I had both of these in front of me.

Chipswim: Why does the fin play need to be so tight? The Dolfin flips back and forth with ease, near instantaneous. Am I assuming correctly that there is some other mechanism that changes the attitude of the foil when the diver switches from up to down stroke?

 

[Chipswim]

If the set up doesn't automatically finish the stroke after you complete your movement it would waste part of your movement in the opposite direction to get back to neutral then reset the angle. It would feel inefficient or dead....."Loose" I call it.

Maybe imagine a flat fin that was so soft it stayed bent the wrong way at the end of the stroke instead of springing straight on its own to finish it. It would feel like you had on a mermaid costume with little propulsion for a given movement instead of a high performance fin. Does that help?

The pins in the photo are near the toes which is the softer end of the adjustment. (The real white one you may be thinking is in the stiffest hole is actually the pivot point of the hinge not an adjusting hole.) Since his concern was lack of response and too many strokes to cover a given distance I suggested moving to the opposite end of the spectrum = a pin in each adjusting hole...to feel that. Then he would be very unlikely to over power or over angle the flukes. Of course he may ultimately choose to settle on something in between. Just want him to realize the choice is built in readily accessible to him.

The very center stuff is solved in the new design but the coin or washer solutions described take care of it in the previous design..... It is the preloading thing I've described before.

You can tell I'm concerned that some swimmers of the design I am using now may be unnecessarily disappointed in the way their equipment moves them when such simple adjustments can make such a nice improvement in its behavior. Naturally, I've been through that experience myself.

Thank you for asking and thank you Lil Jon for the nice photo that facilitated the discussion. Of course I hope these ideas make your Lunocet a more useful part of your impressive collection!

 

[REVAN]

...The pins in the photo are near the toes which is the softer end of the adjustment. Since his concern was lack of response and too many strokes to cover a given distance I suggested moving to the opposite end of the spectrum = a pin in each hole...to feel that....

It looks like he has a pin in the hole nearest the shoe and also a pin in the hole nearest the fin. My impression was that you always have a pin in the hole nearest the shoes to keep the free end of the elastomeric spring retained. That one pin by itself would be the softest spring setting. Then, for stiffer settings add the second pin to one of the other holes, the stiffest option being the hole furthest from the shoes (nearest the fin). Have I got this correct?

Going custom mod as you have done, someone can make extra dowels and add those to the other 2 holes to make it stiffer than the maximum stock stiffness setting from the manufacturer. Also, adding the zip ties is another option. Are there others? I think the rubber tire material, you added for other reasons, not to change the stiffness, right?

Please correct any errors I have here...