2014 lunocet

[Chipswim]

Ok... Let's see..

Like my friend with a kidney transplant from a young person says when someone asks how old he is...." It's complicated! "

Ted only knows all the intricacies. I need to know enough to make it act like I want. I write about it so others can make it act like they want. I want everyone to enjoy their fin. More difficult to describe in words than I originally imagined!!

Almost typed out trying¡ Think I've said everything I know AND a few things that I don't know.... There in lies the problem! No wonder I'm confusing everyone.... Not what I had in mind.

Some of the parts are not visible when everything is together. That's what is screwing you up I think..I try to describe as though it were alive. You try to understand what I say as though it was numerical. That would work great if we found the right interpreter! .... But you have the basic idea. I think.

My tire protects the hinge spring assembly. I actually wear away rubber spring material on pool walls over time if it isn't there. I also like that it is kind of a non skid pad when turning. I can use it either to protect or stiffen my setting if I want. Probably not many folks will chop up tires and strap them to their feet thinking it's fun.

Hoping AA will publish and bail me out real soon!

 

[Chipswim]

Diver's Easter Bouquet found on Deeper Blue!

 

[neurodoc]

With differing terminology used, and some people experiencing better results than others, here is a picture that I feel would be useful for anyone with a Lunocet to understand it properly. I'm sure there will be a user manual in the future, but for now we have each other ;-) So, adjustment pins are labeled 1-4. Pivot pin is the stainless one. Forward pin is the one to the right that you cannot see when the flukes are on. Without a forward pin, the fin will not work. The forward pin anchors the far end of the spring to the flukes. It must be a longer pin, such that it can engage both sides of the aluminum peduncle. Adjustment pins work this way: softest setting=pin 1 only. Pins 1,2 filled is a little stiffer, 1-3 is stiffer. Hardest setting is 1-4 filled, as in the picture. If there are no adjustment pins, the peduncle will just be a hinge and the fin really does not work. I hope that helps us all to be on the same page with descriptions and helps some of you understand and enjoy your Lunocet!

 

[marginatus]

how about a pin just in position 4 (pivot and anchor too)? how does it compare (I'll have to wait some other 2 weeks to find out)?
thanks
Edit: just realized that without a pin in the first position, the spring might oscilate there... right?

 

[neurodoc]

Marginatus, I've tried that. Putting a pin in only position 4 does not give the spring much rubber to flex; all of the flex happens from the holes being stretched to an ovalized shape. While the rubber does return to normal shape, if you swim with a pin in only 4 you end up with more "slop" by the end of your swim, as you've stretched the holes instead of flexing the whole spring. This is why some users have "slop issues" and others don't, I believe. The end of the spring toward the #1 hole will be flexing up and down more, unrestricted. The fin will work that way-I did exactly this before I figured it out-but it doesn't work as well.

 

[noa]

With differing terminology used, and some people experiencing better results than others, here is a picture that I feel would be useful for anyone with a Lunocet to understand it properly. I'm sure there will be a user manual in the future, but for now we have each other ;-) So, adjustment pins are labeled 1-4. Pivot pin is the stainless one. Forward pin is the one to the right that you cannot see when the flukes are on. Without a forward pin, the fin will not work. The forward pin anchors the far end of the spring to the flukes. It must be a longer pin, such that it can engage both sides of the aluminum peduncle. Adjustment pins work this way: softest setting=pin 1 only. Pins 1,2 filled is a little stiffer, 1-3 is stiffer. Hardest setting is 1-4 filled, as in the picture. If there are no adjustment pins, the peduncle will just be a hinge and the fin really does not work. I hope that helps us all to be on the same page with descriptions and helps some of you understand and enjoy your Lunocet! View attachment 38241

Superb visual explanation ! Thank you. Yes, I agree with what you say in your next post about pin #1. I actually think that pin should always remain in the hole regardless of the chosen setting. It could actually be made permanent.

 

[marginatus]

Superb visual explanation ! Thank you. Yes, I agree with what you say in your next post about pin #1. I actually think that pin should always remain in the hole regardless of the chosen setting. It could actually be made permanent.

Yes, makes sense. could even be from a different material/color to make it user friendly - meaning that one has to be there like teh other 2 pins at the right

 

[neurodoc]

Edit: just realized that without a pin in the first position, the spring might oscilate there... right?

Marginatus and noa, you're both correct:

Yes, at a minimum there must be a pin in position one and the forward anchor pin. No pin in either position disconnects the spring, leaving the flukes loose to hinge back and forth.
edit: and of course the stainless steel pivot pin!

 

[cdavis]

Excellent pic and description, thanks Neurodoc. Now Ifinally understand how it works. The angle of the blade to the waterflow changes with increasing force being put on the blade. The spring is made so that it keeps the blade at an angle that produces good thrust(and doesn't stall) over a wide range of force and that angle can be adjusted to account for individual characteristics. Pretty slick design.

I really like what appears to be an easy way to adjust the angle of the peduncle (and blade when gliding).

 

[marginatus]

Excellent pic and description, thanks Neurodoc. Now Ifinally understand how it works. The angle of the blade to the waterflow changes with increasing force being put on the blade. The spring is made so that it keeps the blade at an angle that produces good thrust(and doesn't stall) over a wide range of force and that angle can be adjusted to account for individual characteristics. Pretty slick design.

I really like what appears to be an easy way to adjust the angle of the peduncle (and blade when gliding).

I think you got it wrong...
the angle is the same, what varies is the resistance of the spring to allow the fluke to flex and thus making it return to the center position quicker.

Footplate angle adjustment is another deal...

right?

 

[cdavis]

correct on the footplate angle.

Angle of the foil to water flow is critical in foil fins, they have great lift(great propulsion) until the angle gets too great and they stall. I'm pretty sure the angle that produces the best lift will change with speed through the water, kicking force on the foil, and probably other things. The spring adjusts the foil angle to the speed and force on the fin. Hence the advantage of being able to adjust the spring and, indirectly, the angle of the foil to the water. You are probably correct that the spring speeds up the foil in switching from up to down lift

The details are beyond me. Ted or Revan could give a better answer.

 

[Chipswim]

These fin behaviors become much clearer much quicker in the first hour of use.... The challenge has been arriving at that hour.

I actually thought cdavis was remarkably word efficient and eloquent describing the functions of the spring / hinge assembly in his first paragraph. He even took time to marvel that the ultimate deflection is variable with set up of the assembly and swimming technique...... And there is not an absolute limit! That heightens the importance of proper set up since the fin's performance is more responsive to set up than swimmers are accustomed to.

I read his second paragraph as a well deserved tip of the hat to Ted's new optional feature where the shoes can be attached to the fin at three choices of angles all right around 30 degrees......... As you also noted in your second paragraph Marginatus.

The centering and the deflection are both influenced by the spring/hinge set up but they occur at different parts of the stroke.... Therein lies the genius and the possibility of confusion. The centering uses relatively gentle force but it HAS to happen at both stroke extremities since it occurs when your input is low in the instant you change direction of fin movement =no free movement allowed in the center or we waste movement. That is the coin or washer preloading discussion from before.

The power angle setting requires much more resistance from the spring since it occurs when you are applying considerable force to swim forward. That is what the four pins adjust.

The comments about oblonging the adjusting holes in the rubber spring are the reason I began protecting my spring with nylon zip ties as an external assist to the internal spring pins. With that idea in your mind you could easily and dependably make a worn or damaged spring swim like new for a long time if necessary or keep it from ever being hurt at all. Could be valuable if you are on a beautiful trip of a lifetime when your fin or your swim buddy's fin began feeling less lively than before! Easy fix anywhere!

 

[marginatus]

the only thing I'm sure from the last days is that: increasing the frequency on which the tracking information is checked, produces no changes in the speed it moves towards it's delivery.

 

[Chipswim]

No truer words were ever posted Marginatus!!!!

9405 5036 9930 0278 5706 24

Memorized my USPS Pro tracking number !!!!!

 

[cdavis]

Ahh, so the angle of the peduncle to the shoes is not infinitely adjustable, but has 3 choices? I assumed it was infinite.

 

[Chipswim]

1. Wisdom is infinite.... We search on!

Correct! Each foot / fin angle can be adjusted separately I think three choices to help with old injuries or to improve power transfer or glide angle!

Two Advanced Aqua Aliens from different locations recently landed near Roswell. Both made it to the not so nearby water! There have been multiple sightings. I haven't actually seen either one myself. Incredibly that has not discouraged me from posting the descriptions of one voluminously amongst those who have actually swam with them ¿¡!?¿¡!?

 

[marginatus]

Ahh, so the angle of the peduncle to the shoes is not infinitely adjustable, but has 3 choices? I assumed it was infinite.

will be adjustable with the new accessory that allows it... I'm assuming it has like 3 holes to fix to the peduncle (or something like that) wich corresponds to the 3 angles...
So it won't be adjustable continuously but instead discreetly

 

[noa]

There are two other adjustments I would like to see with the foot plates. First one where the angle in relation to each other can be adjusted.
They are now parallel and it would be useful if they could achieve a level of "toe in", slightly angling the toes in towards each other as this can give better leg positioning for thrust.
The other adjustment I would like is the distance between the foot plate and the penducle. Slightly longer than present (so bigger distance between the plate and penducle) would also be beneficial in streamlining the whole package. The toes of the shoes presently protrude too much over the fin and create unnecessary turbulence.

 

[REVAN]

There are two other adjustments I would like to see with the foot plates. First one where the angle in relation to each other can be adjusted.
They are now parallel and it would be useful if they could achieve a level of "toe in", slightly angling the toes in towards each other as this can give better leg positioning for thrust.
The other adjustment I would like is the distance between the foot plate and the penducle. Slightly longer than present (so bigger distance between the plate and penducle) would also be beneficial in streamlining the whole package. The toes of the shoes presently protrude too much over the fin and create unnecessary turbulence.

Keep in mind that every manufactured adjustment is likely to add $$$ to the cost. However, there will likely be some toe-in/toe-out adjustability just from the tolerances of the assembly. I know that with the X-20, there is probably about 8 degrees of movement available between the shoes before they are locked down into position with the shoe bolts. If the lunocet is similar, that may be enough movement to do what you want.

Also, other posts have suggested that the Lunocet is already near the limit of the shoe technology it depends upon. It has been said that plastic sole shoes will break, and that carbon composite shoes are necessary to hold up against the Lunocet's fin loads. Further increasing the distance from the shoe to the peduncle may very well push it beyond the tipping point of workable.

There are usually good reasons why things are set up the way they are by the time a product goes into production. These are just a few possible reasons I can think of for the present configuration. There are probably several other reasons as well.

 

[Chipswim]

Noa!

You'll be reassured and partially return to your senses when you get your shoes bolted on and get in the water...

BUT....
I see you have those voices in your head too! They say: " This thing is cool! It goes fast! I bet I could tweek it here and there and.... Make a hot rod version! That would be even more fun.!!!!"

I'm confident Ted was responding to those inspirations before you and I started hearing them. Revan too. That's how monofinning has jumped ahead to where we find it today.

You have chosen interesting variables to wonder about!
www.harborfreight.com has killer deals on power tools. Let us know how your variations turn out!

I was hoping to meet you someday in person on a beautiful dive destination island.... Looks like it might be in a group session with my psycho therapist instead ¡¡

Let me know when you realize you need her contact info!

Today my voices keep repeating:
9405 5036 9930 0278 5706 24....! Tracking says it is on the move!

Oh no! It is in Washington D C this morning ¡ How good can that be?