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AIDA World championship indoor 2011- Lignano
- Thread starterGoran Colak
- Start date
Thread Status: Hello
, There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
Personally I think both the touch and grab rules are a little dated. We're supposed to promote safety. If we punish the athlete for being touched by a safety diver - when it obviously makes absolutely no difference to the performance, that's just going the opposite way. Obviously it is different if the toucher is a coach or supporter, or if the diver is being supported by the safety, but accidentally touching is just stupid. Well, ok, it makes for great drama - I guess that's useful in promoting the sport. Great to see the right decision taken though for Goran.
We should encourage safeties to be closer to divers and people to grab the edge of the pool!
We should encourage safeties to be closer to divers and people to grab the edge of the pool!
The right outcome happened and I'm happy for that. The full rules should be looked at when a new technical officer is appointed. Any takers?
Anyway, the safety was in tears when he realised what had just happened. It's the mark of the man that Goran went up to him and comforted him afterwards. A true champion and deserved record holder.
The woman's comp was also very exciting, though not quite as dramatic. Three 200m+ swims is pretty amazing; taking the number of women in the 200m club up to five. Kathryn didn't quite manage what she wanted, but there's still static today...
Anyway, the safety was in tears when he realised what had just happened. It's the mark of the man that Goran went up to him and comforted him afterwards. A true champion and deserved record holder.
The woman's comp was also very exciting, though not quite as dramatic. Three 200m+ swims is pretty amazing; taking the number of women in the 200m club up to five. Kathryn didn't quite manage what she wanted, but there's still static today...
Results STA:
IVANSKA Barbora (CZE) F 6'17" Nuovo Record Nazionale
KEDENBURG Katja (GER) F 5'15"
LOPEZ-LEHTO Veera (FIN) F 7'03" Nuovo Record Nazionale
ROBATTI Rodolfo (CHE) M 6'11"
CETLER Robert (POL) M 7'20"
JOKI Antero (FIN) M 7'01"
MC GRATH Jenna (USA) F 5'01"
BAESEN France-Gaelle (FRA) F 5'29"
KITAHAMA Junko (JPN) F 4'01"
PARAIYAR Anna (GBR) F 4'27"
KWIATKOWSKI Adrian (POL) M 8'09"
FORSBERG Jonas (SWE) M 7'15"
PONTINEN Mikko (FIN) M 7'34"
BUGLIONI Tommaso (ITA) M 6'33"
MILLER Georgina (GBR) F 6'11" Nuovo Record Nazionale
FISHER JODY (AUS) F 6'09" Nuovo Record Nazionale
YONEYAMA Miyako (JPN) F 3'59"
PHILIP Liv (GBR) F 5'41"
CHAPELLE J. (FRA) M 6'50"
CRAWSHAW Chris (FRA) M 6'46"
SESSA Frederic (FRA) M 7'07"
BATTAGLIA Gaspare (ITA), M 8'04" cartellino rosso, SQUALIFICATO (errato protocollo, non ha tolto il tappanaso prima di dare l'ok)
Lopez-Lehto Veera (FIN) 7'03"
BREAK
MIGARD Albine (FRA) F 5'16"
KARINA Irina (RUS) F 3'44"
HOPF Monika (GER) F 4'26"
JESCHKE Barbara (GER) F 4'22"
WEISS Ben (USA) M 6'03"
COLAK Goran (CRO) M 8'10"
KANEDA Katsumi (JPN) M 7'18"
SORENSEN Rune Hallum (DEN) M 5'06"
DEMLOVA Zdenka (CZE) F 4'31"
DRIVA GCONTE Joanna (GRE) F 4'23"
LIJIC Lidija (CRO) F 5'43"
BIALA Emilia (POL) F 6'03" Nuovo Record Nazionale
SATTO Gabriele (ITA) M, Istruttore Apnea Academy 6'38"
CONEM Benoit (FRA) M 7'10"
IOANNIDIS Aristides (GRE) M 6'32"
PRADON Jean-Michel (FRA) M 7'33"
SANADA Chisa (JPN) M 5'32"
SZALONTAYOVA Veronika (SVK) F 6'01"
HIROSE Hakano (JPN) F 6'32"
NEVATT Kathryn (NZL) F 7'12" (GOLD)
TRUBRIDGE William (NZL) M 7'21"
MOLCHANOV Alexey (RUS) M 8'03" CARTELLINO ROSSO, SQUALIFICATO, toccato dal coach
DEXTEGEN Ulf (SWE) M 7'57"
BREW Guy (NZL) M 1'16" (packing BO)
GORAN COLAK 8'10", medaglia d'oro anche in statica ! (GOLD!)
IVANSKA Barbora (CZE) F 6'17" Nuovo Record Nazionale
KEDENBURG Katja (GER) F 5'15"
LOPEZ-LEHTO Veera (FIN) F 7'03" Nuovo Record Nazionale
ROBATTI Rodolfo (CHE) M 6'11"
CETLER Robert (POL) M 7'20"
JOKI Antero (FIN) M 7'01"
MC GRATH Jenna (USA) F 5'01"
BAESEN France-Gaelle (FRA) F 5'29"
KITAHAMA Junko (JPN) F 4'01"
PARAIYAR Anna (GBR) F 4'27"
KWIATKOWSKI Adrian (POL) M 8'09"
FORSBERG Jonas (SWE) M 7'15"
PONTINEN Mikko (FIN) M 7'34"
BUGLIONI Tommaso (ITA) M 6'33"
MILLER Georgina (GBR) F 6'11" Nuovo Record Nazionale
FISHER JODY (AUS) F 6'09" Nuovo Record Nazionale
YONEYAMA Miyako (JPN) F 3'59"
PHILIP Liv (GBR) F 5'41"
CHAPELLE J. (FRA) M 6'50"
CRAWSHAW Chris (FRA) M 6'46"
SESSA Frederic (FRA) M 7'07"
BATTAGLIA Gaspare (ITA), M 8'04" cartellino rosso, SQUALIFICATO (errato protocollo, non ha tolto il tappanaso prima di dare l'ok)
Lopez-Lehto Veera (FIN) 7'03"
BREAK
MIGARD Albine (FRA) F 5'16"
KARINA Irina (RUS) F 3'44"
HOPF Monika (GER) F 4'26"
JESCHKE Barbara (GER) F 4'22"
WEISS Ben (USA) M 6'03"
COLAK Goran (CRO) M 8'10"
KANEDA Katsumi (JPN) M 7'18"
SORENSEN Rune Hallum (DEN) M 5'06"
DEMLOVA Zdenka (CZE) F 4'31"
DRIVA GCONTE Joanna (GRE) F 4'23"
LIJIC Lidija (CRO) F 5'43"
BIALA Emilia (POL) F 6'03" Nuovo Record Nazionale
SATTO Gabriele (ITA) M, Istruttore Apnea Academy 6'38"
CONEM Benoit (FRA) M 7'10"
IOANNIDIS Aristides (GRE) M 6'32"
PRADON Jean-Michel (FRA) M 7'33"
SANADA Chisa (JPN) M 5'32"
SZALONTAYOVA Veronika (SVK) F 6'01"
HIROSE Hakano (JPN) F 6'32"
NEVATT Kathryn (NZL) F 7'12" (GOLD)
TRUBRIDGE William (NZL) M 7'21"
MOLCHANOV Alexey (RUS) M 8'03" CARTELLINO ROSSO, SQUALIFICATO, toccato dal coach
DEXTEGEN Ulf (SWE) M 7'57"
BREW Guy (NZL) M 1'16" (packing BO)
GORAN COLAK 8'10", medaglia d'oro anche in statica ! (GOLD!)
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BTW, back to the DNF in the 50m pool that people so worried about - I compared and analyzed the DNF performances at the WC2011 with Personal Best performances prior the championship. And I did the same for the last WC 2009 in Aarhus, which was in a 25m pool. If you are interested in the statistics and the analysis, you may see it here: APNEA.cz - Blog
Trux, IMHO despite noumber and statistics, if we look at top 6 DNF atheltes.
Fred
Goran
Rune
Bjarte
Mikko
William T.
and their performance, 4/6 decreased their performance, 1/6 equalled his PB, and 1/6 improved his PB a lot.
If I draw my conclusion from it it's simple. 50m doesn't helped them at all. They all progressed in last 2 years in term of apnea capacity, at least in other disciplines if You compare to Arhus or to their PBs. However non of them was able to reach their PB, despite Fred who would improve his PB anyway, the question is, by how many meters?
Fred
Goran
Rune
Bjarte
Mikko
William T.
and their performance, 4/6 decreased their performance, 1/6 equalled his PB, and 1/6 improved his PB a lot.
If I draw my conclusion from it it's simple. 50m doesn't helped them at all. They all progressed in last 2 years in term of apnea capacity, at least in other disciplines if You compare to Arhus or to their PBs. However non of them was able to reach their PB, despite Fred who would improve his PB anyway, the question is, by how many meters?
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Matt I did not compare 2 years old PB's with the recent results. It was their PB's just before the competition that I used in both cases. So if their capacity significantly improved in the past two years, it should be visible in the results (and it is of course calculated with).
6 athletes is a statistically very insignificant number and easily misleading, since each single failure will skew the results completely. On my mind, Goran did not win DNF, because he gave it up already in advance - with all respect to Goran, it was clear from his reaction here that he had absolutely no confidence in making a great swim in the 50m pool. On my mind it was more a mental problem than the real impact of the pool size. Might have been similar for some others too.
However, I do not claim that the pool size has no impact at all. Of course, there are differences. But it may be to the advantage of some (especially shorter freedivers, fast technical swimmers), while to disatvantage of others. Such is a life. But in average the difference is negligible, and even for those where the pool lenght is to disatvantage, the difference is much lesser than anticipated.
6 athletes is a statistically very insignificant number and easily misleading, since each single failure will skew the results completely. On my mind, Goran did not win DNF, because he gave it up already in advance - with all respect to Goran, it was clear from his reaction here that he had absolutely no confidence in making a great swim in the 50m pool. On my mind it was more a mental problem than the real impact of the pool size. Might have been similar for some others too.
However, I do not claim that the pool size has no impact at all. Of course, there are differences. But it may be to the advantage of some (especially shorter freedivers, fast technical swimmers), while to disatvantage of others. Such is a life. But in average the difference is negligible, and even for those where the pool lenght is to disatvantage, the difference is much lesser than anticipated.
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I agree, that there is no huge difference like we were thinking, however I still think there is some...maybe 5% maybe more, maybe less.. we can speculate about it and we would not know
look on it from the other hand, how many top athletes did PBs in DNF finals in Arhus, and how many did here?
p.s. Ivo, why Fred's DNf is continental record? As far as I Know it should belong to Tom Sietas old 213m WR?
look on it from the other hand, how many top athletes did PBs in DNF finals in Arhus, and how many did here?
p.s. Ivo, why Fred's DNf is continental record? As far as I Know it should belong to Tom Sietas old 213m WR?
When it comes to comparing results in a 50 vs 25m pool PB`s will not tell you much. You would have to compare to similar attempts and that is really hard. If someone would make a swim until BO in both pools then you could see. I did and the comparison was 210m vs 196m. I must admit it`s not a huge difference though. I also had a clean 208m in training (25m) and I had a clean 201 in Lignano 50m pool (training.)
Well, that's right, Bjarte, but competition PB's are the only data I have. The number of long swims with BO's is fortunately relatively low, so I can't base any analysis on it. However, all data, including your own claims confirm that the difference between 25m and 50m pools is far not as bad as many would tell. And I am sure that if one gets used to it, and perhaps tweaks the speed and technique a bit to optimize it for the lenght, the difference may vanish even more.
The 25m vs. 50m pool debate depends greatly on the method used by the diver.
If using Sietas' method, then 100% certainly the 25m pool is an advantage. If using Stig's method, then the difference is very small.
For those of you who don't remember:
Stig's method: use LZR type suit, with enough weight to be neutral
Sietas' method: use a thick wetsuit with enough weight to be neutral (results in using a HUGE amount of weight)
In Sietas' method, the inertia of the diver is so huge that the momentum can carry the diver almost the entire distance of the 25m pool.
I personally think that because of this reason, wetsuits thicker than 2mm should not be allowed in DNF. Perhaps even ban all wetsuits, and allow only speed-skin type suits.
If using Sietas' method, then 100% certainly the 25m pool is an advantage. If using Stig's method, then the difference is very small.
For those of you who don't remember:
Stig's method: use LZR type suit, with enough weight to be neutral
Sietas' method: use a thick wetsuit with enough weight to be neutral (results in using a HUGE amount of weight)
In Sietas' method, the inertia of the diver is so huge that the momentum can carry the diver almost the entire distance of the 25m pool.
I personally think that because of this reason, wetsuits thicker than 2mm should not be allowed in DNF. Perhaps even ban all wetsuits, and allow only speed-skin type suits.
Yes, Eric, that's right, but on the other hand the additional weights/inertia have some limits too, and they then again depend on your physiognomy. You need really strong legs, othewise the push-offs will exhaust you and consume more oxygen than they save, when you are decelerating and accelerating all the mass at each turn. Also the body size plays a role. But generally, I believe that the positive role of the push-offs is greatly overestimated.
Well, I am no reference, but I experimented with additional weight and longer glides after the push-offs. And although I indeed glided better, I was not able to reach my PB. And from personal experience I can tell that it was the same case with all my competition DNF dives in a 50m pool (3 so far) - I was always very much positively surprised, so I stoped to be obsessed with the push-offs.
Well, I am no reference, but I experimented with additional weight and longer glides after the push-offs. And although I indeed glided better, I was not able to reach my PB. And from personal experience I can tell that it was the same case with all my competition DNF dives in a 50m pool (3 so far) - I was always very much positively surprised, so I stoped to be obsessed with the push-offs.
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I think with 2mm pants my legs would still sink. :rcard
The limit is provided by the heat people face wearing thick suits. Also with thick suits the movement resistance is (much) bigger.
People have a wide range of body types, allowing free use of suits and weights will help the sport providing variety.
Actually I love the various approaches people have to the sport!
The limit is provided by the heat people face wearing thick suits. Also with thick suits the movement resistance is (much) bigger.
People have a wide range of body types, allowing free use of suits and weights will help the sport providing variety.
Actually I love the various approaches people have to the sport!
BTW, all results, including today's STA final, are now online at APNEA.cz ranking - 6th AIDA Individual Pool World Championship 2011
It was a crazy 10 days in Italy by all means.
Lets start from DNF, there is a lot of talking about 25m vs 50m pools, and jeap it is harder in 50m no doubt about it, roughly 10-15m at 200m dive. Of course it is less for Fred and more for divers like Tom Sietas as someone sad earlier. And believe me I did not give up wining the DNF event, because I got scared of 50m pool, I did not win coz Fred was better and dive longer.
The DYN finals... well before anything I just have to say THANK YOU to all athletes who singed that piece of paper, that my dive was OK and I should be given a white card. This is really amazing!!! But thing that shocked me the most is that later I found out that my protest will probably be rejected if the official video clearly showed me being touched by the safety. So I just got lucky... right? It's just blows my mind that this dive was questionable at all, but that's just me I guess... and 100 more athletes at the site.
To safety that touched me, as I sad to him personally at the pool site, I hold no grudge, and I am not mad at all, what he did was act of happiness that he wanted to share... he did not want to DQ me, I know that, and for that reason I can never be mad. All is fine, don't lose your sleep about it
No one comments static I see... maybe is the best to not talk about it at all, never again
Lets start from DNF, there is a lot of talking about 25m vs 50m pools, and jeap it is harder in 50m no doubt about it, roughly 10-15m at 200m dive. Of course it is less for Fred and more for divers like Tom Sietas as someone sad earlier. And believe me I did not give up wining the DNF event, because I got scared of 50m pool, I did not win coz Fred was better and dive longer.
The DYN finals... well before anything I just have to say THANK YOU to all athletes who singed that piece of paper, that my dive was OK and I should be given a white card. This is really amazing!!! But thing that shocked me the most is that later I found out that my protest will probably be rejected if the official video clearly showed me being touched by the safety. So I just got lucky... right? It's just blows my mind that this dive was questionable at all, but that's just me I guess... and 100 more athletes at the site.
To safety that touched me, as I sad to him personally at the pool site, I hold no grudge, and I am not mad at all, what he did was act of happiness that he wanted to share... he did not want to DQ me, I know that, and for that reason I can never be mad. All is fine, don't lose your sleep about it
No one comments static I see... maybe is the best to not talk about it at all, never again
It was a crazy 10 days in Italy by all means.
Two golds, one silver, one world record...crazy days indeed!
Super Kudos Goran.