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European Union Consultation – Including ban on use of projectiles .
- Thread starterrab
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Thread Status: Hello
, There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
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It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
Yes it is good news to hear, but let's keep up the pressure anyway until we actually see it confirmed i.e. enshrined in concrete in a corrected proposal 2008/0324.
It does seem what I suspected all along i.e. that the clerical 'simplification' was too severe and didn't actually intend to ban us. (In my previous IT job, I used to suffer a lot from this from technical authors who didn't fully understand the area they used to update the documentation for. As a result they would often choose a form of wording that included or excluded situations which were simply wrong.)
Anyway I've just sent off my objection to my 9 local MEPs in the North West, my local MP and DEFRA. It includes suggested ways and areas in the proposal which should be suitably changed.
It does seem what I suspected all along i.e. that the clerical 'simplification' was too severe and didn't actually intend to ban us. (In my previous IT job, I used to suffer a lot from this from technical authors who didn't fully understand the area they used to update the documentation for. As a result they would often choose a form of wording that included or excluded situations which were simply wrong.)
Anyway I've just sent off my objection to my 9 local MEPs in the North West, my local MP and DEFRA. It includes suggested ways and areas in the proposal which should be suitably changed.
Sounds like an unintended consequence of merging the two old articles. Two simple remedies spring to mind, either or both of which should lead to a happy outcome:
1. Keep the new Article 12 but remove all reference to projectiles.
2. Specifically add spear fishing and rod fishing (cast lures, etc.) to the list of exceptions that already exists at the back of the document.
I like both of these because #1 will further simplify the law (their aim) and would allow the sale of speared fish (bringing it sensibly in line with rod caught fish). Most would never sell speared fish and it's not something I particularly hanker after but the current rule seems an unnecessary complication & restriction on personal freedoms (if there is a health issue, that would be different). Spearing and rod fishng should be treated the same IMHO.
I like #2 because it would enshrine in law the normality of spear fishing and sea angling, including the right to spear fish and cast lures/bait. Pretty basic rights but we've already seen how easy it is to get scribbled out of existance.
246 signatures on the petition
1. Keep the new Article 12 but remove all reference to projectiles.
2. Specifically add spear fishing and rod fishing (cast lures, etc.) to the list of exceptions that already exists at the back of the document.
I like both of these because #1 will further simplify the law (their aim) and would allow the sale of speared fish (bringing it sensibly in line with rod caught fish). Most would never sell speared fish and it's not something I particularly hanker after but the current rule seems an unnecessary complication & restriction on personal freedoms (if there is a health issue, that would be different). Spearing and rod fishng should be treated the same IMHO.
I like #2 because it would enshrine in law the normality of spear fishing and sea angling, including the right to spear fish and cast lures/bait. Pretty basic rights but we've already seen how easy it is to get scribbled out of existance.
246 signatures on the petition
Excellent that. I've just proposed doing the same things in my objection e-mail.
Sounds like an unintended consequence of merging the two old articles. Two simple remedies spring to mind, either or both of which should lead to a happy outcome:
1. Keep the new Article 12 but remove all reference to projectiles.
2. Specifically add spear fishing and rod fishing (cast lures, etc.) to the list of exceptions that already exists at the back of the document.
I like both of these because #1 will further simplify the law (their aim) and would allow the sale of speared fish (bringing it sensibly in line with rod caught fish). Most would never sell speared fish and it's not something I particularly hanker after but the current rule seems an unnecessary complication & restriction on personal freedoms (if there is a health issue, that would be different). Spearing and rod fishng should be treated the same IMHO.
I like #2 because it would enshrine in law the normality of spear fishing and sea angling, including the right to spear fish and cast lures/bait. Pretty basic rights but we've already seen how easy it is to get scribbled out of existance.
246 signatures on the petition
I think it is a scary illustration of how easy it is to lose civil liberties by being complacent. If this hadn't been raised by the starter of this thread I don't know how much energy would have gone into defending our spearfishing in the UK. The state is getting too big in this country/Europe IMHO
I'm afraid I don't share Neil's optimism about having "nothing to fear". Despite best intentions, if the proposal is not changed, it is open to interpretation and reinterpretation in the future. (As mentioned above, spearing and angling should be specifically excluded from these restrictions and the whole projectile text should be removed. This would simplify the document and avoid this confusion.)
They probably won't completely remove all reference to methods using projectile since as has been said earlier in this thread, they were probably thinking about addressing commercial harpoon fishing.
Putting recreational spearfishing in the Excepted Activities (i.e. excepted from the regulation) would be fine.
Putting recreational spearfishing in the Excepted Activities (i.e. excepted from the regulation) would be fine.
Sorry Mr X but i kind of like it how it is at the mo with the ban on sale of speared fish. Most of the time when i dive i could come out with an armfull of fish but only take one for the plate then i get very choosy about what else i take on the same day. Years back in the Med the spearfishermen got a very bad press for killing off the reefs because they were seen coming out of the water with huge amounts of fish which they sold. Now i am not starting a new thing about this. Who knows if it is true or not BUT they gave then sport a bad name (possibly due to the ill informed dorks that saw them) which we still suffer from! Is this partly why we could be outlawed from spreaing now? We are trying to convince everyone how eco friendly spearing is but that could change if we get an army of commercial spearfishermen suddenly hitting the reefs. Think of all the 38cm fish you could take! If it was just for your dinner plate you let them go by and wait for something bigger. Put a price tag on it and its fair game. We all know they are not big enough to have spawned but if your only income was fish would they let them go and wait for something 42cm or bigger? I think not!
And before anyone starts, last aug when spearflap and myself got that bumper catch or 15 or so bass. Everyone of them was kept and eaten fresh or frozen but not given away. Selffish i know but what the hell, I like bass too much!
Be gentle with your response, i just dont want to risk our love of spearing if we manage to get past this shite now!
Think I have to agree with gutshot on that one , if people see £10 notes swimming around instead of "not worth shooting " schoolies , how many would be left ? To be honest I gave up angling for spearing 'cos I wanted to catch more fish , I don't see the two sports are equal ( maybe I was just a crap angler )
Are amateur anglers allowed to sell fish in the EU? I would have thought that they would require an expensive commercial license, and that commercial spearos would require the same thing ?
If you get caught selling fish here in Aus you can say goodbye to your car, boat, dive gear, and many thousands of dollars.
Commercial spearing would still be the most ecologically friendly method of harvesting with zero bycatch, the only problem being that they would be restricted to the coastal fringe.
Good luck fighting this poorly written legislation!
If you get caught selling fish here in Aus you can say goodbye to your car, boat, dive gear, and many thousands of dollars.
Commercial spearing would still be the most ecologically friendly method of harvesting with zero bycatch, the only problem being that they would be restricted to the coastal fringe.
Good luck fighting this poorly written legislation!
Whaling is probably covered by international treaty. But if they want to cover whaling here, it would be better if they specifically said whaling. If they want to cover shooting sea mammals (such as seals, porpoise, dolphins) it would be better if they specifically said it. The current vague, broadbrush wording makes huge sweeping restrictions, with no indication of the original thought or intention.
I take your point on selling speared fish. I'm not keen on folk doing it, so it's definitely a lesser concern. I'm more concerned about arbitrary restrictions. The same arguments could be applied to rod and handline fishing. The latter is currently being encouraged as a sustainable.
Agreed, Whales are mammals not fish :duh
A week ago we were all worried and fighting to just keep our sport legal, why are we now arguing about the legality of selling fish? Let's just keep to the original goal and try and win our game and not try and turn professional halfway through a match.
A week ago we were all worried and fighting to just keep our sport legal, why are we now arguing about the legality of selling fish? Let's just keep to the original goal and try and win our game and not try and turn professional halfway through a match.
I'm with Pastor on this one.
It is important on issues like this to present a united front,and a simple argument. Once you start adding ifs, buts or maybes then it gets confusing for politicians, and the law of unintended consequences starts to apply........ This is why I got so frustrated when people started saying "freedive spearfishing is ok, but scuba is evil" etc during the debate on the South Wales ban.
Spearfishing (of any type, including commercial or scuba) is NOT any more of a threat to fish stocks than other types of fishing. If you accept a ban on commercial spearing, you are flagging up spearfishing as more potentially damaging than other forms of fishing, which is patently not true
I would certainly not agree that spearfishing is any more efficient than angling. If I say so myself, I am not bad at spearfishing, but if I wanted to fish commercially, I would not waste my time with a speargun, a live mackeral drifted through particular spots would catch way more bass with a lot less effort, and be doable on far more days
cheers
dave
Spearguns by Spearo uk ltd finest supplier of speargun, monofins, speargun and freediving equipment
It is important on issues like this to present a united front,and a simple argument. Once you start adding ifs, buts or maybes then it gets confusing for politicians, and the law of unintended consequences starts to apply........ This is why I got so frustrated when people started saying "freedive spearfishing is ok, but scuba is evil" etc during the debate on the South Wales ban.
Spearfishing (of any type, including commercial or scuba) is NOT any more of a threat to fish stocks than other types of fishing. If you accept a ban on commercial spearing, you are flagging up spearfishing as more potentially damaging than other forms of fishing, which is patently not true
I would certainly not agree that spearfishing is any more efficient than angling. If I say so myself, I am not bad at spearfishing, but if I wanted to fish commercially, I would not waste my time with a speargun, a live mackeral drifted through particular spots would catch way more bass with a lot less effort, and be doable on far more days
cheers
dave
Spearguns by Spearo uk ltd finest supplier of speargun, monofins, speargun and freediving equipment
Good point - reminds me of that beer/cider advert with the shoaling bottlesThink I have to agree with gutshot on that one , if people see £10 notes swimming around instead of "not worth shooting " schoolies , how many would be left ? To be honest I gave up angling for spearing 'cos I wanted to catch more fish , I don't see the two sports are equal ( maybe I was just a crap angler )
. Funny, I took up angling because I wanted to catch more fish -- finding I often encountered sea/weather conditions which made it difficult/impossible/pointless to spear. With angling you can fish in all weathers & conditions, if you are willing and hardy enough. You need a fairly high degree of health & fitness to spear. How many spearos miss prime weeks each year due to cold, sinus infection, ear ache, allergies/hayfever, injury? I've lost 4-8 weeks all told this year already due to various minor ailments which stopped me spearing yet I consider myself in good health, have taken no time off work and could fish with rod throughout.The proposal talks of "marine organisms" not fish specifically. So no more shooting plankton, casting into seaweed or spearing algae.
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We are not trying to turn anything professional. Someone made a comment and i gave my view. I am just as concerned about the potential ban as you, and, as everyone else (i hope) i have been doing my bit to oppose it. I thought this was a forum for disscussing the legal rubbish that is trying to screw up our sport. The sale of the fish is something that could be thrown into all of this.
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If you start bringing in the wish to sell speared fish we will loose this. The commission will see it/us as a commercial enterprise, an easy and productive way of catching fish. Like it or lump it, spearfishing is an unpopular and misunderstood sport, just be grateful if we keep our right to practice it legally, don't risk it by pushing the boundaries, we will loose.
You may want to read what i wrote before. I am totally against the selling of speared fish. They are trying to change the law which could ban spearfishing. Hopefully we have MPs who are fighting our corner to rewrite the new laws so we are not included in the ban, BUT if the laws are rewitten could it not include allowing speared fish to be sold? As i mentioned, i am totally against the sale of speared fish, but unless we all sort out what is best for our sport, what happens when the MPs ask for some input? Do we all chase our tails saying " Well MR X does not really mind but Gutshot is against it, blah blah blah"! How dumb would we look then?:rcard
I understand you maybe a little miffed about what could take place but so is everyone else. Try to read what people write before you jump in. We should be working together on this, not trying to see who sounds the most important.
Take no notice to the above message Mr X. Just using both of our names as an example. I know you bought your yak with dirty cash. Those poor fishrofl
Sorry I don't understand
With all due respect, attacks on other forum members will see you alienated faster than supporting the proposed ban. Be nice!