Mares Cyrano 1.1 700 - Questions - Mods & maintenance

[Pjk]

Salvimar Vuoto Vacuum 11 Evolution muzzle Black | Diveinn

Get Salvimar Vuoto Vacuum 11 Evolution - Black from the Spare parts range, part of Spearguns, for just 55.99 $. Discover unbeatable dive deals at Diveinn with fast and reliable delivery!

www.tradeinn.com

This one? Wouldn’t want to purchase the wrong one

 

[popgun pete]

Salvimar Vuoto Vacuum 11 Evolution muzzle Black | Diveinn

Get Salvimar Vuoto Vacuum 11 Evolution - Black from the Spare parts range, part of Spearguns, for just 55.99 $. Discover unbeatable dive deals at Diveinn with fast and reliable delivery!

www.tradeinn.com

This one? Wouldn’t want to purchase the wrong one

That is the one. Any reference to Evo includes it and the following Cyrano. The original Cyrano is 11 mm, so it is just referred to as Cyrano. The later high mount barrel guns are Cyrano 1.1 and Cyrano 1.3. The Cyrano Evo was only produced in 11 mm, it was the first of the high mount barrel guns..

 

[Pjk]

Thanks Pete I didn’t see the Evo version on Tradeinn at first, strangely they all share the same reference number along the side of the muzzle or maybe it’s just the same picture re-used for all versions of that Salvimar muzzle online.

Here’s a spare shock absorber for a Salvimar Evo Vacuum muzzle which is not available on Tradeinn

Pneumatic vacuum damper Salvimar

Pneumatic vacuum damper Salvimar

speargun.shop

I look forward to having a short 70cm gun shoot in excess of 4 meters,

Also curious if I could add some silicone to lubricate the seal cup rim within the vacuum muzzle so I don’t have to wet the shaft before each use for longevity of those vacuum seals.

 

[popgun pete]

You don't want sand sticking on the seal if you happen to drop the gun, back on land you could use a drop of oil same as that used in the gun for testing it at home with respect to loading (not shooting), but down on the beach I would just rely on the gun and spear being wet. Boat diving short of dropping the gun it will be keeping away from sand, so maybe a shot of spray would be OK, but the designers rely on the rubber being slippery when wet.

 

[Pjk]

This diagram indicates what I have always thought was the problem with the Cyrano Evo, a flat hook type sear lever should never be used at an angle as it is too close to releasing and firing the gun. The right hand diagram is how Mares shows it. The left displays how it should sit with the gun cocked to shoot. The piston has been omitted for clarity of the diagram.
View attachment 60071

Does the sear lever also sit at an angle with the Cyrano 1.1 or has it been fixed back a 9-3 position?

I haven’t had a chance to get further inside & see for myself as I am still waiting on an inner barrel and the seal kit I purchased many months ago from Lithuania.

There doesn’t appear to be a valve disassembly tool to fit the Mares like Salvimar have on Tradeinn,

I could use cut out aluminium or a thin chisel lined with electrical tape for the valve cap but what about the screws, pins and other,

Are there any other unique tools I would need for a full service/barrel restoration of my 1.1?

From what I can see access to certain screws have been glued over & are seated deep within the handle.

It would be best to have the right tools to avoid any threading/damage

 

[vrokhlenko]

Does the sear lever also sit at an angle with the Cyrano 1.1 or has it been fixed back a 9-3 position?

I haven’t had a chance to get further inside & see for myself as I am still waiting on an inner barrel and the seal kit I purchased many months ago from Lithuania.

There doesn’t appear to be a valve disassembly tool to fit the Mares like Salvimar have on Tradeinn,

I could use cut out aluminium or a thin chisel lined with electrical tape for the valve cap but what about the screws, pins and other,

Are there any other unique tools I would need for a full service/barrel restoration of my 1.1?

From what I can see access to certain screws have been glued over & are seated deep within the handle.

It would be best to have the right tools to avoid any threading/damage

This is the disassembly order in older Cyrano: RELEASE AIR PRESSURE. Then you remove the handle cover by pushing the plastic retaining friction pin out; then you remove the line release by pushing the metal retaining friction pin out. Then you remove the trigger by pushing the metal retaining friction pin out. After that locate the pin that the trigger pushes to actually release the piston. Trigger that you just removed has a metal plate to push down on that pin so you will find the pin in question sticking out from the little round piece with a groove. You must either pull out this pin with the needle nose pliers or using a flat screwdriver unscrew this round threaded insert by pushing down on the pin and inserting blade of screwdriver into the groove. Otherwise you will bend this pin.
Once you did that, you can unscrew the front piece, remove the outer barrel. Unscrew the valve in the back. Remove the handle. To unscrew the valve you need to make a tool out of a thick piece of aluminum. Avoid steel tools.

 

[Pjk]

Thank you @vrokhlenko for the sequential disassembly information, much appreciated.

Hopefully it all goes back together as easily as it comes apart.

I have ordered several packs of Pelengas Vacuum seals & a spare 11mm vacuum shock absorber with a 17-4 SS shaft.

I am less confident the vacuum muzzle will make a huge difference in performance with people writing it is moreso the 13mm barrel guns achieving greater benefits from Vac Muzzle kits vs the 11mm barrels due to the lighter 7mm spears having reduced penetration power at further distances vs 8mm spear.

I will consider adding a little more mass to the spear if the penetration test fails at 4m, a longer (15cm) hardened spear head instead of the 8cm

Removing the shaft slide/line for less drag and maybe even placing a collar/sleeve against the 1mm increase from the shaft tail to ease passage through the seal. I need to weigh a stop ring vs a 17-4 shaft slider doubling as a stop ring.

For all I know placing a tapered cuff against the shaft tail could hinder performance, if you have any hydrodynamic tricks or suggestions for improving distance on the vacuum kit shaft setup please mention them here,

There is also a longer & heavier 77cm 1pce 17-4 shaft available vs my 66.2cm threaded Salvimar hardened shaft, this added weight might help or hinder the distance/penetration.

There isn’t enough information online regarding modifications.

 

[popgun pete]

The search function doesn't seem to find it, but there is a thread here on how to make an inlet valve body removal tool as a tube spanner. From memory it is referred to in the gun disassembly thread on how to get inside.

As for the angle on the sear lever I haven't checked, I am waiting on a NOS Cyrano Evo to see if it is as depicted, unless they changed it during the production run. The Blue Cyrano development of the Evo must have fixed it or the guns would be breaking if the metal line release didn't let go.

Here it is, used to be a sticky. https://forums.deeperblue.com/threads/pneumatic-dismantling-how-to-get-inside.90024/

DIY Tool for removing rear inlet valve

A simple tube spanner can be made to remove the rear inlet valve body. Recently I decided to make one out of some aluminum tubing of 19 mm OD and 16 mm ID. I had thought that this would be too thin and weak in cross-section for the job, but as I had a length of it from a gun project that never...

forums.deeperblue.com

The search function seems useless now, I had to follow a trail to find them again.

 

[Pjk]

The search function doesn't seem to find it, but there is a thread here on how to make an inlet valve body removal tool as a tube spanner. From memory it is referred to in the gun disassembly thread on how to get inside.

As for the angle on the sear lever I haven't checked, I am waiting on a NOS Cyrano Evo to see if it is as depicted, unless they changed it during the production run. The Blue Cyrano development of the Evo must have fixed it or the guns would be breaking if the metal line release didn't let go.

A cutout of same size tube with a hole through the top end for a leverage turning bar to pass through would be ideal.

I am hoping to find that they have reverted the sear back to a 9 & 3 position.

I never latch the piston onto the sear away from water or have line attached unless in water so there isn't any danger but it’s unsettling to think the sear holding the spear under immense pressure is sitting at a gradient.

I have not had any misfire or line release problems however accidental discharge or failure is always in mind.

 

[popgun pete]

When it is all said and done the sear lever in pneumatic guns is a flattened out single piece trigger. A single piece trigger doesn't lock as such, it is pulled up into the piston mushroom tail by a torque that twists the sear lever up at the front. To shoot the tooth is revolved down to a certain angle where the restoring force disappears and now the torque reverses to drop the tooth as it is pushed open by the force from the piston tail, or the spear in a band gun. Tilting sear levers is asking for trouble. In cam lock guns that problem does not occur, but most pneumatic spearguns are not cam lock triggers which need two revolving components. Virtually all traditional front facing band gun trigger mechanisms are the cam lock type.

 

[Pjk]

I’ll be sure to check the spring on the rear of the sear lever periodically during maintenance throughout the service life of this pneumatic.

If Hookes law is the only thing keeping that piston on the tooth I wonder if any positional bump, knock or jolt could release it.

 

[vrokhlenko]

I’ll be sure to check the spring on the rear of the sear lever periodically during maintenance throughout the service life of this pneumatic.

If Hookes law is the only thing keeping that piston on the tooth I wonder if any positional bump, knock or jolt could release it.

I just fixed my Cyrano 11 purchased in 1995. The only thing that gave out was an o-ring in the trigger mechanism. It lost its flexibility and started to leak air. I am talking about the ring that surrounds the pin that presses against the sear when the trigger is pulled. Very weird size - 4.5mm outside diameter and 1,3 mm inside. Sits in a 3.5 mm diameter hole so it is kind of pressed in. The pin diameter is 1.47 mm and the length is 18mm. The spring you mentioned has an internal diameter of 4mm and its thickness is probably 0.8mm. I lost it so I replaced it with a longer piece of 0.6mm spring. I do not believe anything will ever happen to it. Just do not lose it. I am now trying to source that tiny o-ring I mentioned above. looks like it is impossible - will get a slightly larger and file it down. Aliexpress to the rescue. Buying that crap from Europe will bankrupt you.

 

[Pjk]

I just fixed my Cyrano 11 purchased in 1995. The only thing that gave out was an o-ring in the trigger mechanism. It lost its flexibility and started to leak air. I am talking about the ring that surrounds the pin that presses against the sear when the trigger is pulled. Very weird size - 4.5mm outside diameter and 1,3 mm inside. Sits in a 3.5 mm diameter hole so it is kind of pressed in. The pin diameter is 1.47 mm and the length is 18mm. The spring you mentioned has an internal diameter of 4mm and its thickness is probably 0.8mm. I lost it so I replaced it with a longer piece of 0.6mm spring. I do not believe anything will ever happen to it. Just do not lose it. I am now trying to source that tiny o-ring I mentioned above. looks like it is impossible - will get a slightly larger and file it down. Aliexpress to the rescue. Buying that crap from Europe will bankrupt you.

Already bankrupt

I am happy to finally reach the end of purchasing everything I would need for performance and to be comfortable in the water this coming summer.

Great to know these guns are durable (apart from the delicate aluminium barrel) since your 85cm has survived from 1995 with only a small O ring failure on the trigger pin mech.

I now own 2 of these Mares Cyrano 1.1 70s & so I have all the necessary parts to recreate one working unit if either has any part failures.

Mares directly told me I could purchase any individual parts from any Mares distributer but the representatives tell the Dive shops they don’t want people tinkering with the guns and refuse to sell the components to the public, they would rather you send it to a licensed Mares repairs location.

Originally sold a returned/used gun, the least they could do is provide the parts to fix it.

It would nearly cost the price of a gun to send it to Mares for repairs & I would likely succumb to old age before it’s returned to me.

 

[popgun pete]

I’ll be sure to check the spring on the rear of the sear lever periodically during maintenance throughout the service life of this pneumatic.

If Hookes law is the only thing keeping that piston on the tooth I wonder if any positional bump, knock or jolt could release it.

The vertical coil spring at the rear doesn't keep the tooth clamped on the piston mushroom tail, it is the sear lever acting as a hook. A single piece trigger is basically a hooking mechanism. Provided the line of force from high air pressure acting on the rear of the piston pulls parallel to the axis of the inner barrel and passes under the centre of the sear lever pivot pin the tooth stays up. That requires that the sear tooth and mushroom tail contact faces are perpendicular to the longitudinal axis of the inner barrel tube. When the sear lever is lifted at the rear by the small pin operated by the external trigger, which is just a pushing element, the tooth swings down on an arc and at a certain position the force between the two contacting surfaces produces an angled downward component that pushes the sear lever completely open.

Trigger Mechanism Design Rules - Spearboard.com - The World's Largest Spearfishing Diving Boating Social Media Forum

Trigger Mechanism Design Rules All About Guns

spearboard.com

 

[Pjk]

Thanks Pete for helping me comprehend what’s happening when I press the trigger, your ability to fast track newbies is second to none.

I would like a glass scale model of the Cyrano where I can poke and view the sear both with & without air to see how the ambient air pressure acts upon re-balancing the sear after I move it..

These guns should come with a warning “use of pneumatic's may cause an irreversible thirst for knowledge & understanding”

I’ll have to try moving 30bar pressure in equivalent weight using a row machine or something at gym to get a rough idea how much tension/force the sear/piston holds on that pivot pin when it’s cocked.

 

[popgun pete]

You don't need a glass model, this diagram shows what is happening. Any tilt on the sear lever and the torques from the forces created by the piston being under high air pressure and operating around the sear lever pivot pin begin to change rotation direction and the gun shoots. With the sear lever in the latch position the torque holds the sear lever front end up keeping the piston hooked. Once the piston unhooks from the sear lever tooth it will zoom down the inner barrel pushing the spear out of the gun. You only want that to happen with a definite swing of the external trigger, not a slight touch, or none!

 

[popgun pete]

The supposedly new old stock Cyrano Evo orange handle arrived today, but on opening the package they sent me a Cyrano 1.1 with the blue handle! It was a WTF moment as I don't need another Cyrano. It was the right size, the gun was advertised as a Cyrano Evo 70 cm, the gun they sent is a Cyrano 1.1 70 cm, they ain't the same gun.

Note the drawing with the green tick has been altered by me, the one above ii is the Mares original for the Cyrano Evo

When Mares put out the new blue handle Cyrano they quietly changed things rather than say exactly what was wrong with the Evo. To confirm all this we need to dismantle an Evo, Right now we can only go by the diagrams they let slip out. Troublingly the new Force speargun is illustrated as having the same sear lever tilt! Note the lower Cyrano Evo image has been tweaked by me to show the difference, it is not how Mares drew it.

The new Force pneumo-vacuum speargun is shown above, taken from the Mares video.

 

[Pjk]

That blue handle would have been quite a surprise haha

It seems like the Evo’s transition to the 1.1 was confusing for most people including whomever sold you that upgrade model.

I would be willing to purchase that from you for spare parts if you don’t return it & have no use for it, three 70s would be better than two

It is unlucky the new Mares Force also has the tilted sear with a handle colour & shape that doesn’t appeal to me.

A 90cm Mares Vuoto with a 13mm inner barrel & a 7mm spear sounds perfect and then they ruined it.

If they kept the 1.1 handle shape & level the sear I’d have no choice but to buy one but instead I’d have to get a 1.1 90 since there are no vacuum kits readily available for the 1.3

Considering buying a 90cm pneumatic this year so it can sit in the corner of my room without air while I happily shoot the 70s around shallow reefs all summer.

 

[vrokhlenko]

The supposedly new old stock Cyrano Evo orange handle arrived today, but on opening the package they sent me a Cyrano 1.1 with the blue handle! It was a WTF moment as I don't need another Cyrano. It was the right size, the gun was advertised as a Cyrano Evo 70 cm, the gun they sent is a Cyrano 1.1 70 cm, they ain't the same gun.
View attachment 60135
View attachment 60138
When Mares put out the new blue handle Cyrano they quietly changed things rather than say exactly what was wrong with the Evo. To confirm all this we need to dismantle an Evo, Right now we can only go by the diagrams they let slip out. Troublingly the new Force speargun is illustrated as having the same sear lever tilt!
View attachment 60139

Do you realize you can combat that sear angle by filing down the piece that gets in contact with the end of the piston so they are parallel to each other?

 

[popgun pete]

The wrong gun came from a dealer, they have yet to work out how that happened. The photos on the sales page all show the orange handled Evo, so no confusion whatever about what they are selling. I know about the Evo's faults, and have written chapter and verse on it, but thought I would check it out by pulling one apart myself. As for the new Force it may just be a drafting error, so I doubt Mares have repeated their mistake. My view is someone inexperienced at Mares thought they would increase trigger sensitivity on the Evo by putting a lean or tilt on the sear lever, but that is not wise with single piece triggers as has been shown. The Evo can be fixed by winding the trigger sensitivity screw right out or shortening the trigger transmission pin. Pretty sure that is how Mares fixed the blue handle guns. As I had only undone the package, saw the blue handle butt sticking out, realised what it was, then the gun is going back. Under eBay rules you should not send the wrong item, there is no excuse.

The gun I ordered.

The gun that arrived, I had to take some photos to send to eBay for its return, otherwise I wouldn't have pulled it out of its carry bag. The plastic bag with spear tip, shooting line and hand loader fell out when I picked up the open ended bag, inside will be the hand pump, spear shaft with slider and the instruction book. I haven't fished them out, but for sure they are in there. Surprisingly it is all in the longer gun carry bag as you can see the pointy end flopped over.