sled diving within AIDA

[kelp princess]

This is a low blow. I think you have no reason to put down this disciplines in such a manner unless there is a personal interest involved that I do not know about. In fact I still can not understand how one can perceive NL divers as only freeriders or even as corks. I know a couple of things about this sport and I have always had great respect for NL achievements. We just have to remember the reaction to the Mussimu's and Herbert's NL dives - they were met with a great admiration by the majority of freediving community and yet you imply that this records were merely a hitchike ride up and down. Not very nice and uncalled for, I think.

i agree that this comment and some others have been a low blow (esp. at anna who doesn't need the personal attacks or innuendo.) we should be able to debate the facts without insidiously suggesting some community members are lesser or better than each other.

kp

 

[Simos]

I seem to recall that you suffered a packing blackout few meters into the dive in Montreux in 2000.

And then they say that apnea kills memory cells!

 

[efattah]

If I may, I seem to recall that you suffered a packing blackout few meters into the dive in Montreux in 2000. Or am I wrong?

In my career I did have one packing blackout, as you said in Montreux, but I never even started the dive. Personally I don't classify packing blackouts in the same region as hypoxic blackouts, for two reasons:

1. A packing blackout is not dangerous, you wake up on your own, even if you have no buddy/safety
2. You get a DNS on the dive, not a red card
3. With a short rest you can restart the dive (as Tanya Streeter did on her 162m no-limits)

Still, packing blackouts can also be avoided with training.

As a funny side note, in 2000, nobody had ever seen a packing blackout before. People around me actually had no idea what happened to me.

 

[laminar]

And then they say that apnea kills memory cells!

Uh, why do you think Eric came up with his anti-packing blackout regime in the first place? :duh

That was his first international competition. Back then, respect for fellow competitors was having mishaps was somewhat lower than it is now and he was ridiculed for it as I've heard it told, as you do now, possibly? (or do I misunderstand your sarcasm?).

Next year he set a world record, having learned from his mistake.

Eric has always shared his experiences and tough lessons with anyone who will listen with an open mind.

No one claims here that good divers should never make mistakes or that they never do. If you make a serious one, you owe it to yourself to learn from it, in my opinion. If it can benefit the safety of others, then share it with others.

...

I cannot understand why some here are criticizing a few on this thread (Eric, Will so far) for demanding answers or citing inconsistencies in Annamaria's story. Perhaps you misunderstand their tone? I cannot see how any of it can be considered a personal attack. All I see is simply a desire to understand what actually happened and prevent it from happening again to someone else and to ourselves.

Annamaria, I can understand that you might feel criticized and under the microscope here, so soon after your accident. However, you did post your account of the dive to Deeperblue and given the controversy around VWT/NL at the moment, there are at least a few divers who would really want to know the facts so that they can learn more about this issue and decide what position to take personally, with their AIDA Nationals on the request put forward and so on.

If you feel it's gotten too personal and disrespectful, just remember that (I believe) we actually care about what happens to you (and anyone who might attempt deep dives in the future), whether VWT/NL or CWT.

I hope we can continue this discussion in that context, no?

We're all glad you're safe, now.

When it is difficult to sort through the facts because of a lack of clarity or consistency, that clouds the useful discussion, learning from our mistakes, and we all suffer.

Pete

 

[Fitz-Clarke]

I agree with previous posts that we need to focus more attention on causes of deep blackout. Are we seeing some kind of new phenomenon beyond simple hypoxia of ascent, which seems rather deep at 40 metres. I applaud Anna for her effort and courage in making this detailed summary available for review, and strongly encourage others to do so. Yasemin and Rudy detailed their incident as well, and publicly revealed a possible contributing medical condition. There should be a process of panel review for any incident that involves rescue or resuscitation, done in a manner that does not threaten or lay blame. This should include review by technical and medical experts, and experienced deep divers. We have rules and regulations in place. Maybe they are inadequate. We can learn from the approach of industries to accident investigation (nuclear, aviation, medical) by avoiding early blame and encouraging open reporting and review of the facts including planning, execution, safety systems, and emergency response. Then focus efforts on improving the system.

 

[Simos]

Hi Laminar, I wasn't referring to Eric or critising anything or anyone (actually I think no BO or even 1 BO in comps for 11 years is quite an achievement and i've learned tonnes just by reading his posts).

I was actually making the opposite point and just joking about the fact that Chris still remembers that after 11 years! He must have some memory! I don't even remember what I ate yesterday for lunch

 

[Johan Andersson]

1. A packing blackout is not dangerous...

In order to not bring this thread off topic, without further comments here, I just post a link to another thread in which this point was challenged.
http://forums.deeperblue.com/freediving-science/84029-packing-blackout.html#post781505

/Johan

 

[aris ioannidis]

i just noticed that of the top 5 deeper divers in history in NLT, the 3 are no longer alive...

 

[chrismar]

And one spent months dealing with the effects of type II DCS.

 

[sebastien murat]

Hi,

There are many, many flaws in everyone's approach, even in the most expertly divers/record holders.

There's a chasm of difference between experience (reality) and arm-chair opinions (ideality). If I didn't know any different I'd say many of you must have considerable deep sled diving experience to have such steadfast opinions. Hmm!

I think it might be best to presume to think you only less than what you think you know .... a 10% starting-point or less might be about right.

Experience ..... get some!

Seb

 

[sebastien murat]

PS:

By the way, `life on the edge´does not have one surefire recipe and you cannot ever adequately plan for it. If you think you can, then either you've never been there or you've deluded yourself with hindsight. This is not to say you shouldn't plan.

S

 

[aris ioannidis]

Hello Seb,

it is great to see a Guru coming in in any thread. But why attack the unexperienced divers? This is a diving forum and everybody shares their opinion based on their background and experience. This is essential for a discusssion to move forward.

so instead of saying that everyone is flawed why don't you enlighten us with your experience please?

 

[Will]

Few hold sled-diving in high regard anymore, or want to get experience. A statistical appraisal of sled-diving in terms of its relative risk and relevance to freediving in general doesn't need to come down to 'opinions' though.

Even with little (or no) experience sled-diving, one can still argue that its higher incident rate and confounding effect negatively impact the more contested athletic disciplines, and that its place in the sport as a regulated discipline needs to be reconsidered.

 

[sebastien murat]

Hmm,

When I said "everyone", I certainly did not exclude myself. I do not consider my experience extensive enough, not even secretly, to warrant yet another half-baked opinion.

I do not disagree with your statistics Will, but I do not see how dissociation from assisted dives will better your cause. Explorers and adventurers will continue to exist. Indeed, many of us have built reputations on pushing back limits, all the while preaching the opposite.

I would go so far as to say that any activity whose intent involves exploring one's physical limits and requires safety nets to prevent injury or an otherwise higher than average risk of death is always going to be perceived as out of the ordinary (abnormal?), extreme, risky, and somewhat foolhardy. Unassisted dive are no exempt, but I agree, that assisted dive will likely hurt the image and the diver more. Based on the evidence it is not merely a perception but a fact. This does not mean you should never do it, however. Furthermore, the only `normalized´ freediving activity I've ever observed was always motivated by things other than pushing back physical limits, e.g., fisher-divers, child-play.

Marginalizing or limiting assisted divers is not, I believe, a solution to the problem. You'll find better outcomes with an open-minded approach that involves inclusion, education, and experience.

Best
S

 

[cebaztian]

On the subject of AIDA sled diving and judging such events.

A team is pressured by prestige, over belief in their athlete, money and sponsor issues, hoping for the best. A judge is a much needed "worst case scenario" advocate for a team.
On Pompes 128 attempt judges took part in the organization of the attempt: commenting, suggesting and demanding changes to specific details in the safety system, this led to improved safety.
BUT
But with judges involved on this level there is no way AIDA could walk away from responsibility and point at the organizer if something serious happen.
The risk with judges taking on more organizational decisions is:
- In a time where quick decisions are needed an organization can not have two heads.
- If a judge starts ordering team members around, then the head organizer can no longer control the process and thus not be able to take full responsibility for the result.

- A safety system is always a balance between many resources, where boosting one option can lead to limiting effectiveness of another factor/system.
If just following "the book" much needed readiness for improvisation will be lost.
- Judges arrive to the record attempt or the last training days, or rest days. In some cases the team has been there diving together long before the judges, and know in a more detailed and hands on way the weaknesses and strength of all factors that has to be balanced into a acceptable level of safety standard. Nothing is ever perfect.

Suggestions for judges to do at a sled record attempt.
(Just a few ideas while I still remember them after the Pompe attempt)
- Demand a "full" medical check up, not just a "fit for diving".
- Discuss optimal dive profile with organization. Different scenarios, preferably using graphs.
- Ask for a second by second written plan covering 30 minutes before dive and the possible evacuation after (with all scenarios)
- Before the attempt: Watch someone ride the sled to 50 meters (twice). Observe different ascent options. Study the graphs.
- Check tidal charts, determine high/low water slack times and evaluate the current in between.
- Set the lines with desired weights and check line angles. Suggestion >100% more weight on drop side.
- Ask safety freedivers to dive down and hang at 30 for 20 secs.
- In no limit or longer/deeper VWT dives demand a physical stop at 25-30 meters, that blocks the passage up. (Climbing jammer put on rope by safety freediver ?)
- Send the empty sled down to planned depth. Have camera on sled and film slightly downwards and watch the film afterwards.
- If lifewest is used, check ascent speed from 60 meters or at least 30% of max distance.
- Release the AB half the attempted distance (accept 40 second retrieval time (?))
- Check the second surface retrieval system half the distance attempted (accept 60 seconds retrieval).
- Decide all situations and time frames for retrieval systems to be deployed.
- Accept only 10 second total time at bottom. Ascent should be started within 20 seconds from expected touchdown time (to allow for equalization breaks). These times are based on the experiences from Pompes attempt and may not be true for other situations.
- Demand a retrieval system that works even if the line is cut (for instance inflatable lifevest)
- Check the evacuation route and time it (max 30 min from surfacing to chamber) preferably 10 minutes.
- Demand one dedicated time announcer.
- Demand one dedicated skilled depth sounder reader.

Before the dive: check:
- Lines angles
- Lanyard
- Check the manometer
- Check the O2 (should be enough also for evacuation)
- Check the depth sounder and battery status
- Check if there is a defibrillator and artificial breathing system.

Not a complete list... just wanted to get some things into print before I move on to other things.

Sebastian

 

[sross]

Explorers and adventurers will continue to exist.

Yes, Sebastien, absolutely! As will extreme sport lovers.

This has all been covered in this thread 'way back on pp. 5-12.

Example: there is another sled sport where deaths routinely occur, and some aprticipants are severley injured and must spend months, even years, recovering.

It's called Luge.

and it's an Olympic sport.

And people are going to do it, no matter what happens to other competitors.

C'mon you nannies and busybodies! There's no point lobbing this ball back and forth across the net indefinitely, saying the same old stuff. People are going to keep on doing extreme sports no matter how much tut-tutting, lip pursing and finger wagging you do :naughty

Marginalizing or limiting assisted divers is not, I believe, a solution to the problem. You'll find better outcomes with an open-minded approach that involves inclusion, education, and experience.

I think the same holds true for any extreme sport. Would banning Luge from the Olympics result in fewer casualties? I would argue that it would not. As Sebastien says, accepting the fact that people want to compete in extreme sports and alowwing for infrastructure to promote safety, controlled experimentation and training can only improve safety rather than marginalizing people, who will then have to improvise to do what they love to do, indeed some might say need to do. Passion is a hard thing to supress :inlove

 

[Mullins]

I think you may have just lobbed the ball across the net and said the same old stuff.....

 

[apneaboy]

No Dave, you just did, so right back atcha.....

 

[Mullins]

But you just... no, wait. That means I just.... err....

 

[sross]

I think you may have just lobbed the ball across the net and said the same old stuff.....

Now I want to stop playing tennis and start beating a dead horse :martial

(That's not considered animal cruelty, I think? Since he's already dead and all)