Static PB's

[Fabio Toyama]

Unattended trials

Could anyone tell me if there is a possibility of having a heart attack or any other serious problem as not restarting to breath after fainting without an outer help as CPR? I'm referring that to dry statics.

The only reason I'm asking you that is because I was having a good progression but my wife started to get a bit worried of finding me dead on the floor when she comes back from work.

I'm pushing harder and harder but there's never anyone with me. Last time (2 and half weeks ago) I beat my PB doing 5'45" and in another trial got into samba at 5'50".

I'd like to keep practicing dry statics! But I'm going to be alone as usual...
Please anyone give me some advice!

I'm looking forward to hearing from you.
All the best for everyone!

 

[stevevidar]

Fabio,
Great times! I recently took a CPR First Aid class for divers and talked to the instructor about that. Did you know that the number one health concern for their divers, Dive Masters and charter boat people have, is heart attack? But the reason why is a lot of out of shape people scuba dive. They sit on their butts for months and then go on dive trip with no physical preparation.

Neither my instructor or I had ever heard of a freediver having a heart attack. We felt the reason is freedivers are usually in the top part of the population when it comes to cardo shape. That is not say it couldn’t happen, because with birth defects anyone can have a heart attack no matter how good of shape they are in.

Personally, once when I had neglected my cardio training, I was having some heart pain on static for a couple weeks. I backed off the statics and got back into shape and haven’t felt it since.

With all the freedivers doing dry statics by themselves, and nobody is having a heart attack, I would say the chances of you having one is very slim. Tell your wife your much more likely to die from something else like her cooking! That will get you in the doghouse for a long of time so you will have plenty of time for dry statics.:t
Steve

 

[Murat]

I am doing bodybuilding as an ameteur and when i measured my heart beat rate, it measured around 50-52 is this good? But when doing static my heart beat rate increase, shouldn't it suposed to be decrease?

Actually it beat fast for only first and second hold after it decrease towards the last holds i even can't hear my heart beat, what is the scientific explanation of this?

 

[stevevidar]

Murat,
A 50-52 resting hr is good. Hr usually goes up for most people for the first couple of minutes. Then it should go down. It takes about 2 minutes for the body to figure out its not going to get more oxygen so it better start conserving it. As you get better it will drop more.

Larger muscles from bodybuilding consume more oxygen and will hurt you a little in static. It’s up to you what you value more. Do make sure that you get cardio exercise. That is important to make your gas exchange system efficient.
Steve

 

[Fabio Toyama]

Need advice please!

3 weeks ago I broke my previous PB of 5’20” doing 5’45”.

When I told my wife she did not like at all as I was doing my trials unattended with no supervision so I agreed to practice not pushing to much and trying my PB only in her presence.

Today I woke up feeling very well and relaxed and thought would be ideal for a PB trial.
I was aiming for the 6+ by the end of the year, but with the improvements I was having I started to get a bit greedy about it and decided was going to be today.

Well, started with a warm up of 1’30” hold, waited about a minute, ventilated and went for 2’30”… and so on… next 3’30”… next 4’10”…next 4’50”… and finally with only 8 contractions I stopped coincidently exactly on my PB of 5’45”.

At that moment I gained confidence and thought… if with only 8 contractions I reached my PB, it’s going to be on the next trial I’ll reach my so desired 6+ (only 15’ for my goal).

Had a rest of nearly 10’ from my last trial and started breathing again. Ventilated for quite a while and went for it.

Started counting my contractions but don’t remember counting them more than 15 to 20 times because I passed out.
At this moment the stop watch I was holding in my right hand dropped but my hand stayed in the same position. (just know that after what my wife told me…)
Well, poor her. She had a terrible image of me with my eyes wide opened and pupils dilated and my face nearly blue and I was still having the contractions and not breathing. And to get things worse, because I was holding the stop watch, when it dropped on the floor I kept the same position of the fingers and she thought I was already having contortions in my hand.

She panicked and removed my nose clip and started to shout my name when I woke up but somehow I still remembered I was trying a PB and stopped the stop watch which was on the floor. The time showed 6’37”.

My questions are:

After how long after you pass out (that’s what I think it happened) your body starts to breath again? Just for reference of what would be a possible PB as this one does not count as I passed out and don’t know how long I was unconscious for.

I would guess that if in the last trial with 8 contractions I was on 5’45” and on the PB trial I might have counted to about 15 that I remember, so a potential real PB would be more than 6’, wouldn’t it?
Is it normal for your pupils to dilate only passing out for a short period of time? Or even before you pass out if the amount of oxygen is too low?

If I was already unconscious (not sure) why haven’t I started to breath again but was still having my contractions?

Are all these reactions of my body I described above normal of when you pass out pushing the limits or it could indicate something more serious?

What are the chances of having a heart attack practicing statics?

I like pushing the limits, but sometimes the body does not respond according to planned.
To be honest with you I got a bit scared with this experience... don't know if that's the way it is..

I need some advice to regain confidence and specially regain the support of my wife on my training and PB trials

I’m looking forward to hearing from you
All the best for all of you!
And take it easy sometimes…

 

[shaneshac]

Man your wife must have crapped herself.

thats the problem with blackouts you cant feel them coming.

Dangerous.

Take care

Shane

 

[tylerz]

Well I do not know if this is a very well studied area. I think the most useful question to be answered regarding this is:

"Is recovery from a dry blackout a potential danger?"

What Fabio seems to be concerned with is whether there is potential for a person to not naturally recover from a dry self-induced blackout. I have had many dry sambas during max statics and I have had a handfold of blackouts due to standing tests (exhale and crouch near the floor; suddenly stand up and inhale to the max; pack a few times; tumble to the ground).

My beliefs to date were that a dry induced blackout without the influence of trauma, was a temporary safety measure by the body and guaranteed (except under freak incidents) under normal conditions to only be temporary. Meaning the body would always reinitiate breathing after a period of time. On all my blackouts due to standing tests, this has been the case. And in general I think this would almost always be the case since people, myself included, have blackouts from standing up suddenly all the time. Not necessarily the same people all the time, but with all the people on the planet, I think we would have heard of the dangers of standing up suddenly if it were a life threatening danger all of its own.

Now the only difference I can think of between these standing blackouts and static blackouts, would be the nature of the body prior to the blackout. During static you have entered a very static body posture, activity, mindset. Meaning everything after blackout is pretty much the same as while doing the static. Therefore maybe due to this the body might not realize any change from the danger that shut it down, to encourage it to release the blackout. That is all I can think of at the moment that would give the possibility that they are different categories of danger.

Beside this unknown potential danger I can share the following potentially relevant information.

1. Is it possible that your wife mistook you having contractions for you having a samba. I have had sambas where my torso twitches sporatically and it can look like mild contractions.

2. After a static I have noted memory loss for periods of up to 30 seconds prior to ending the static, without having a samba.

3. If you can remember having dreams then you have had a blackout most likely! I regularly have dreams during a few seconds of blackout after a standing test.

Well that is all I can think of for now, but I have never thought of doing dry statics as dangerous and it still strikes me as unlikely. But heed that not until we hear more opinions on this possibility. However, I have come across no warnings about doing dry statics, and with such a community you would think this would have been addressed if it was a normal concern. Look forward to ideas on this.

Cheers,

Tyler

 

[shaneshac]

Hey Tyler,

When do you recommend I use the standing test?

If you pass out what does it mean?

Thanks

Shane

 

[tylerz]

Well I learned of the standing test from Eric Fattah, which I think he came up with. The idea is to test your response to changes in blood pressure and specifically whether you are in a more susceptible condition to blackout. This originally being for the purpose of determining whether your body is in good shape or not towards dealing with the changes in pressure during diving, relatively speaking.

I personally think it could be useful if you do these tests over a few months of time on a rather regular basis under various conditions and feelings, to see what your worst days are like compared to your best days and then one has a fairly good range to use as their personal measurement of body condition. That is you do them regardless of whether you are going to be diving or not. It would be nice if there was a way to determine a less relative version of this test. I believe it to be relative since different people upon inhale will create different changes in pressure due to muscle abilities, muscle flexibility, etc... For one person 1 pack is all they can achieve, yet for another 30 or more.

Other than that this test is usefull to detect changes in your body in general, towards your health. Back in September I realized I was fainting almost every time I got up. I could not pass the standing test with any amount of packing sometimes. I went to the doctor eventually and realized my blood pressure had gone up by 20.

Basically if you pass out and were doing a relative test for good condition, then you are not in good condition to deal with blood pressure changes. If you pack less or breath in less to test for fair condition (the amount less would have to be determined over that testing period of a few months as I mentioned earlier) and blackout then you are in less than fair condition to deal with blood pressure changes. At least this is how I use it so far. Eric may have a slightly different outlook on it.

Cheers,

Tyler

 

[tylerz]

Forgot to mention that the tests should be done after you have eaten or been a little active in the morning, when you are using it to assess your condition for diving. This is so you are testing yourself in a similar state as you will be in while diving. If you test first thing in the morning you will almost for sure get bad results, as your blood pressure and oxygen supply will be quite low already.

Cheers,

Tyler

 

[Fabio Toyama]

Thanks for that Tylerz

I always liked this stuf but was never into the technical part of it.
I started to know a bit more with this website.
I realized that there's so much we can learn and use to improve your training and achievements! Haven't tried any of the tables or training yet... I will soon.
Thanks and all the best

 

[efattah]

The 'stand up test' (aka ATRC test = Ability to Remain Conscious Test), was invented as a diagnostic tool to test your ability to remain conscious when challenged with low brain blood flow and low brain oxygen.

I came up with it in winter 2001, when I was in the early phase of planning for a record attempt later that year. By June of 2001, I had discovered that repeatedly doing the ATRC test (perhaps 3 or more times per day), resulted in 'hypoxic/ischemic preconditioning.'

In other words, nearly blacking out during the test, 2, 3 or 4 times per day, increased my brain's resistance to blackout, dramatically.

Originally, when I just started doing it, I would stand up while inhaling rapidly, pack 10 times, and then usually my vision and hearing would fade, and I would wake up shaking on the ground (i.e. B/O+samba). Soon, I learned my body so well that I could 'bend over' to prevent a B/O at precisely the last second possible, during the 'fading' phase.

Then, I noticed that I could delay bending over more and more, and go deeper and deeper into the 'fading phase.' I could wait until I couldn't see or hear anything, then bend over, and would avoid the samba-BO.

But my progress didn't stop there. It eventually got to the point where my vision and hearing would fade completely; I couldn't see anything, I couldn't hear anything, I couldn't feel anything. I was just a spark of consciousness with no thought or thinking. But there was still awareness, and a knowledge that I was going to be okay. There was no need to bend over. I would wake up, still standing firm. No shaking. No memory loss.

This was when I realized that the test itself had dramatically increased my resistance to blackouts. It was around the same time that I found I could dive deeper and deeper, and upon ascending my vision and hearing would fade. Often the last thing I would remember was seeing my safety freediver at 15m. The next thing I would know, I would be on the surface with my mask off, a bit confused, and giving the okay sign. My buddy would always tell me that it was a picture perfect 'clean' dive. He would explain how I got to the surface, breathed, took off my mask promptly, gave the okay, and so on.

When I stopped doing the test, this effect disappeared, and I would get to the surface after some dives, still very clear in my mind, and yet I would have a big samba. What a difference.


Eric Fattah
BC, Canada

 

[Fabio Toyama]

Thanks
I’ll try to be more technical rather than just trying harder and harder.
I realized that improvements come from systematically controlled training programs and techniques; result from years of tests and research.
And by the depth of your explanations I read on this site you really deserve the guru title.
I’m sure there’re loads of information and tips on this forums I never thought of and are already there but still to be discovered.
I’ll keep searching.

All the best

 

[zag0r]

heh, interesting indeed (atrc).
my first attempt ended with me coming to banging my head on the wall (gib, unfortunately, so i've got to try & explain the largish crack in the wall to the boss somehow, at some point ) from samba/BO.

 

[tylerz]

Just a reminder if you do the ATRC ensure somebody is spotting you ready to catch you at a moment's notice. This test without safety, can end your exciting life of freediving.

 

[zag0r]

or (perhaps?) outdoors on a wide patch of soft grass or sand, if you're alone.
one can stumble quite a way when samba'ing from a standing position.

 

[naiad]

I have been doing tables, and my PB is now 5:10! It is impossible for me to do anything close to this time in the pool, because I get too cold, but sometime I will get a thicker wetsuit and then.....

naiad

 

[sammydive]

Naiad,
When you do your statics in cold water, make sure to wear thick warm gloves. I was reading a study on the dive reflex and although cool water on the face helps induce oxygen conservation, submersing the hands in cool water has the opposite effect. Warm gloves are essential for cold water statics!
Sammy

 

[nVy]

my vital stats

178 cm
weight 70 Kilos
6.9 L

I've just started on with static, I managed 2 mins today, yesterday 1'33 mins, the day before 1'13 mins. I get so inspired reading all this great PB's, I got a cold these days but when I'm fully fit I hope I will manage 3 minutes!

 

[kingohyes]

Samba

Hey, im doing Apnea walks to school everyday, not too hard but still hard.. Once i pushed myself further than before, my legs got full of acid and I was exhausted.... But, I have never felt anything near a samba when doing apnea walks... Has anyone experienced it?? I feel its much more likely to get it in the water even when not pushing the limits too far.. Although i must admit my legs get shaky from all that lactic acid