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Static with no warm-up
- Thread starterderelictp
- Start date
Thread Status: Hello
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Sunday was an off day (recovering from a Christmas party!) :duh.
Last night, I got to the pool with a headache from working at the computer all day.
I went first:
4'00" first attempt: contractions were horrible, headache worsened
5'15" second attempt: a little easier, but it was a struggle to make 5 minutes. At this point I was thinking the only good training I would get in would be pack stretches for my diaphragm.
6'17" last attempt: at 4'30" I felt like I was doomed to eek out another 5 minute static, but then at around 4'45" my hands and feet started to feel different and I got a second wind. I did not get this feeling during the first two attempts. The contractions felt fine from then on. When I came up I had ringing in my ears. I'm starting to wonder now if that ringing is not really a sign of hypoxia, but rather is primarily a sign of rising blood pressure (which caused by hypoxia or by acidic blood or both?). I've heard of studies with freedivers and how their bp goes off the scale during a long static. Does anyone have any references or ever experienced this? Another thing I noticed was that when my first signal came, I was so relaxed that I really, really did not want to move my finger. It was funny. I had a little argument in my head about it. But my hands felt so good just enveloped in water and motionless.
Eric went:
6'58" first attempt (new personal best for first static)
6'40" second attempt. Eric only took a 5 minute interval between and felt too depleted after the first one to go further.
My girlfriend Jill came to the pool, too. She is just starting out. She has never felt a contraction and her pb in the pool is 2'40". She has been anxious about going further because the "suffocation just gets worse and worse." It's interersting to me to remember how I felt the first time holding my breath to that point of a first contraction.
Jill breathed up as I do, resting on the pool edge, breathing through her nose, quietly. No forced breaths or purges.
1st static: 2'00"
2nd static: 2'20"?
3rd static: 3'01" She was not sure if she had a "contraction" at this point or not, but she did feel that the usual suffocating feeling that was previously stopping her relaxed a bit and she could keep on going. When she came up she was so happy she jumped on me. To make 3'01" without a "contraction" is a pretty amazing result (yes, I'm biased), especially as it was done without hyperventilation. She is a former competitive swimmer, though, so her buffers are probably higher than most other beginners. As always, it's great to celebrate a new personal best!
Over the holidays, we're going to use an oximeter and find out what saturation she's actually at when she gets to 3 minutes. I'm guessing it will be around 85-90% SaO2.
I really wish I could fast forward to June when we've done 3 or 4 of these sessions and know what the overall adaptations will be from this kind of practice.
Anybody else want to share their practice with no breathe up statics?
Pete Scott
Vancouver, BC
Last night, I got to the pool with a headache from working at the computer all day.
I went first:
4'00" first attempt: contractions were horrible, headache worsened
5'15" second attempt: a little easier, but it was a struggle to make 5 minutes. At this point I was thinking the only good training I would get in would be pack stretches for my diaphragm.
6'17" last attempt: at 4'30" I felt like I was doomed to eek out another 5 minute static, but then at around 4'45" my hands and feet started to feel different and I got a second wind. I did not get this feeling during the first two attempts. The contractions felt fine from then on. When I came up I had ringing in my ears. I'm starting to wonder now if that ringing is not really a sign of hypoxia, but rather is primarily a sign of rising blood pressure (which caused by hypoxia or by acidic blood or both?). I've heard of studies with freedivers and how their bp goes off the scale during a long static. Does anyone have any references or ever experienced this? Another thing I noticed was that when my first signal came, I was so relaxed that I really, really did not want to move my finger. It was funny. I had a little argument in my head about it. But my hands felt so good just enveloped in water and motionless.
Eric went:
6'58" first attempt (new personal best for first static)
6'40" second attempt. Eric only took a 5 minute interval between and felt too depleted after the first one to go further.
My girlfriend Jill came to the pool, too. She is just starting out. She has never felt a contraction and her pb in the pool is 2'40". She has been anxious about going further because the "suffocation just gets worse and worse." It's interersting to me to remember how I felt the first time holding my breath to that point of a first contraction.
Jill breathed up as I do, resting on the pool edge, breathing through her nose, quietly. No forced breaths or purges.
1st static: 2'00"
2nd static: 2'20"?
3rd static: 3'01" She was not sure if she had a "contraction" at this point or not, but she did feel that the usual suffocating feeling that was previously stopping her relaxed a bit and she could keep on going. When she came up she was so happy she jumped on me. To make 3'01" without a "contraction" is a pretty amazing result (yes, I'm biased), especially as it was done without hyperventilation. She is a former competitive swimmer, though, so her buffers are probably higher than most other beginners. As always, it's great to celebrate a new personal best!
Over the holidays, we're going to use an oximeter and find out what saturation she's actually at when she gets to 3 minutes. I'm guessing it will be around 85-90% SaO2.
I really wish I could fast forward to June when we've done 3 or 4 of these sessions and know what the overall adaptations will be from this kind of practice.
Anybody else want to share their practice with no breathe up statics?
Pete Scott
Vancouver, BC
Last edited:
Ringing ears
Hi, just my humble contributions.
Motivated by this thread I've been doing similar experiments for a week or so. Anyway, I've never experienced ringing ears before, but in the past couple of days I get it every time. The difference is, that I've changed from "hyperventilation and full static" to no ventilation and timing only the part after 1st contraction. The statics I've done these few days can't have been more than 4-5 minutes (don't know actual time, since I don't time them), but still I get ringing ears and a slight headache from each trial and I get really warm, hot even. So at least in my part, I'd say the ringing definately comes from co2. This feeling passes within a few breaths after the hold.
It also seems that I always peak on the second try for maximizing the time of contractions. But my first hold is getting closer all the time, so maybe some day I only need one. We'll see...
One thing I've noticed is that with this kind of training, relaxation becomes easier. I think I sort of got "there" a couple of times, where after some 40 contractions, where I would usually bail, I just sort of fell into my mind and surfed them, reaching 100 for the first time today
I'm pretty anxious to get to try this in the water tomorrow for the first time.
On a side note, according my girlfriend I actually packed in my sleep last night. That's kind of freaky I was dreaming I was in a competition getting ready for a start...Sheesh. Gives whole new meaning to sleep apnea though
Hi, just my humble contributions.
Motivated by this thread I've been doing similar experiments for a week or so. Anyway, I've never experienced ringing ears before, but in the past couple of days I get it every time. The difference is, that I've changed from "hyperventilation and full static" to no ventilation and timing only the part after 1st contraction. The statics I've done these few days can't have been more than 4-5 minutes (don't know actual time, since I don't time them), but still I get ringing ears and a slight headache from each trial and I get really warm, hot even. So at least in my part, I'd say the ringing definately comes from co2. This feeling passes within a few breaths after the hold.
It also seems that I always peak on the second try for maximizing the time of contractions. But my first hold is getting closer all the time, so maybe some day I only need one. We'll see...
One thing I've noticed is that with this kind of training, relaxation becomes easier. I think I sort of got "there" a couple of times, where after some 40 contractions, where I would usually bail, I just sort of fell into my mind and surfed them, reaching 100 for the first time today
I'm pretty anxious to get to try this in the water tomorrow for the first time.
On a side note, according my girlfriend I actually packed in my sleep last night. That's kind of freaky
I was dreaming I was in a competition getting ready for a start...Sheesh. Gives whole new meaning to sleep apnea though 
Hi Pete.
Keep these posts coming. They're quite interesting and I appreciate being able to learn from the time you're putting into it seeing as I don't have the time available to turn myself into a guinepig.
When you do your sub-neutral breathing do you do any purging before you begin your static? It sounds to me as if you don't. I find that quite interesting seeing as the Dr.s who spoke at the Worlds were saying that Co2 levels were the main limiting factor to static times. They also noted that their studies showed experienced freedivers were doing longer breath holds primarily due to better purging technique, lowering their Co2 levels before a static and therefore allowing more of it to accumulate before getting close to maximum levels during the hold.
Great to hear Jill had some good statics. I think that a lack of contractions with beginners is a common thing. Julie, my wife, was doing 4 minutes before she started having contractions. When they started they were coming around 2 minutes, but as she has improved her static times the contractions come later.
I seem to recall that when I began I was doing close to 4 minutes before I started getting contractions.
Maybe it is because many beginners can't relax and their tense muscles simply don't contract in the same way. Once you get used to relaxing the body is more sensitive to those unintentional movements.
Jason
Keep these posts coming. They're quite interesting and I appreciate being able to learn from the time you're putting into it seeing as I don't have the time available to turn myself into a guinepig.
When you do your sub-neutral breathing do you do any purging before you begin your static? It sounds to me as if you don't. I find that quite interesting seeing as the Dr.s who spoke at the Worlds were saying that Co2 levels were the main limiting factor to static times. They also noted that their studies showed experienced freedivers were doing longer breath holds primarily due to better purging technique, lowering their Co2 levels before a static and therefore allowing more of it to accumulate before getting close to maximum levels during the hold.
Great to hear Jill had some good statics. I think that a lack of contractions with beginners is a common thing. Julie, my wife, was doing 4 minutes before she started having contractions. When they started they were coming around 2 minutes, but as she has improved her static times the contractions come later.
I seem to recall that when I began I was doing close to 4 minutes before I started getting contractions.
Maybe it is because many beginners can't relax and their tense muscles simply don't contract in the same way. Once you get used to relaxing the body is more sensitive to those unintentional movements.
Jason
I sometimes find myself dreaming about freediving and actually holding my breath. Once I was dreaming about doing statics, and I woke up to find myself still holding my breath. It was not uncomfortable at all, so it probably hadn't been a very long time, but it's hard to tell. Maybe my PB is longer than I think!jome said:On a side note, according my girlfriend I actually packed in my sleep last night. That's kind of freaky
Lucia
Great posts, thanks it revves up my motivation very much!
And to Pete, are you doing 3 maximum statics a training session? Why is that?
Why do not 1-2-4-5?
I try to limit the times I do apnea befor the real max, like you too said; one builds up waste subtances. It's better to start of clean.
There is also this SBS (Static Burnout Syndrome), the mental and physical building up of a blockade to do breathholds. It comes from over-training I think. I know Tom Sietas does a Maximum breathhold a day, 6 days a week. What's your pace/rhythm?
How do you reconise overtraining?
I think breath-hold training put's great strain on the body, more that most anticipate.
How to calculate/measure this, have you any thoughts?
I really like the concept of just a light breath, finding focus, and do a 6+, or a maximum in whatever discipline, indeed just like a seal or dolphin. Don't think, just dive...
Thanks for sharing!
Carlos.
ps, I'll start of next year, and see and report how it devellops. Currently I'm at 6:38.
And to Pete, are you doing 3 maximum statics a training session? Why is that?
Why do not 1-2-4-5?
I try to limit the times I do apnea befor the real max, like you too said; one builds up waste subtances. It's better to start of clean.
There is also this SBS (Static Burnout Syndrome), the mental and physical building up of a blockade to do breathholds. It comes from over-training I think. I know Tom Sietas does a Maximum breathhold a day, 6 days a week. What's your pace/rhythm?
How do you reconise overtraining?
I think breath-hold training put's great strain on the body, more that most anticipate.
How to calculate/measure this, have you any thoughts?
I really like the concept of just a light breath, finding focus, and do a 6+, or a maximum in whatever discipline, indeed just like a seal or dolphin. Don't think, just dive...
Thanks for sharing!
Carlos.
ps, I'll start of next year, and see and report how it devellops. Currently I'm at 6:38.
I have to say watching Peter Scott and Eric Fattah this week has been very motivating and inspiring to me! They are great coaches! Reading all these threads makes me a little embarrassed that I've only reached 3min whereas you are all talking 6-9min. Maybe one day I'll be up there too?? I feel privileged to be the first 'Scott-Fattah' student!
Jill
Jill
Hi Everyone,
Well, day 4 and Kars' post has good timing. I think that this kind of training necessitates excellent recovery, otherwise overtraining effects result. I think that this can be felt even from one day to another.
Today, I felt actually pretty good going to the pool. But in reality, I have not been getting enough sleep recently. About 5-6 hours per night. I felt sleepy and low energy. Yesterday I was able to get over 6 minutes on the 3rd static, but today no dice:
1st static: 4'30" This static was insanely difficult. First contraction was a 3'10" or so (but I was tense starting at 2'00") and then at about 4'20" I felt such an intense feeling of suffocation that I had to come up. My ears rang slightly after surfacing, which has never happened after only 4 minutes! :duh
2nd static: 4'15"-ish....same feeling. Contractions delayed a bit longer but same horrible feeling. I didn't feel like blacking out, just that each contraction was taking a huge chunk out of me.
3rd static: 5'01"...slightly easier, contractions at 3'30" but quickly became unbearable and I just felt exhausted.
This would appear to be overtraining or fatigue or both since I can usually make 5 minutes on a first breath hold with ease.
I don't think that in this state I am making any progress. I am taking tomorrow night off and I will nourish my body. That may not be enough....
Another thing that I find is very relevant to this discussion is how static training intersects with real life:
-the reason that I do only 3 attempts is that since Eric and I train together, 3 attempts each takes about 2 hours in the pool + travel time to and from the pool. More than that and I feel like I'm wasting time. If I didn't work and could schedule statics I would do them at 4-6 pm, fitting it in with eating schedules and proper sleep patterns. Unfortunately, that's not an option right now.
-Because of the pool hours and work :hungover we generally can only go to the pool at 7:00-7:30 pm. This means we don't leave until 9:00-9:30 pm.
-When to eat? I find eating late at night throws off my whole feeling of well-being. So I don't eat that much at night during static training. But no doubt the body needs nourishment to make adaptations and anti-oxidants to clear away the waste products. Today I felt as though I was laced with acid.
In the past I've noticed that it is rare that I have two consecutive days of progress, more often the second day is an "off day," where my times drop to 4'00-5'00. Not enough recovery time sounds like a reasonable explanation when you are making attempts close to my pb.
I have to remind myself that I haven't adapted to this kind of training like Tom Sietas has. Just like an Olympic swimmer who trains at an intensity that would probably kill me, I imagine static apnea is no different. Getting even close to that level takes months or years, not days.
Eric went after me:
1st static: 4'30" and it looked difficult. I was starting to wonder if he was also burnt out.
2nd: 7'08" Very strong. A new pb in training (but not in competition).
Eric is getting 8-10 hours of sleep as well but also noted that he felt acidic in general.
Jason: I never do any purging before a static. Even breathing through my mouth is sometimes enough to give me symptoms of over-ventilation (buzzing in fingers, lips, delayed contractions, mental fuzziness late in a breath hold), so I've done away with it. I know that Tom seems to do one or two small purges before going, but maybe his body can handle that. I'd like to ask him about that.
I think that this idea is too simplistic (it is one that I used to believe in, as evidenced by my experience with different methods of hyperventilation :duh) because of the importance of the Bohr effect (acidity) and the perils of the Haldane effect (alkalinity). If getting rid of CO2 is the limiting factor in static apnea, then why doesn't Tom Sietas HYPERVENTILATE for 10 minutes? The problem with hyperventilating for 10 minutes is that your blood becomes so alkaline that hemoglobin affinty for oxygen skyrockets and no longer releases sufficient oxygen to brain and tissues--> black out. Remember le Japonais in the Big Blue?
The other problem with this point of view is the "evidence" it is based on. I assume that the studies cited showed trained freedivers in contrast to untrained people. Anyone with even a bit of training can hold their breath past that psychological break point, which is a significant difference. Even if the studies compared freedivers doing statics with and without purging, the results are meaningless because (I assume) the majority have been training to use purges and have not adapted to statics without any breathe up. So if in 2001 you asked me to be a part of this study (when I was using multiple warm ups and different forms of hyperventilation) and try statics with and without a warm-up, no doubt I would have said that hyperventilation was the better way.
I think purging and a "breathe-up" confuse us by making the static appear "easier." But "easier" does not always mean "better."
Okay, I need to sleep now. Thanks for sharing everybody.
Pete Scott
Vancouver, BC
Well, day 4 and Kars' post has good timing. I think that this kind of training necessitates excellent recovery, otherwise overtraining effects result. I think that this can be felt even from one day to another.
Today, I felt actually pretty good going to the pool. But in reality, I have not been getting enough sleep recently. About 5-6 hours per night. I felt sleepy and low energy. Yesterday I was able to get over 6 minutes on the 3rd static, but today no dice:
1st static: 4'30" This static was insanely difficult. First contraction was a 3'10" or so (but I was tense starting at 2'00") and then at about 4'20" I felt such an intense feeling of suffocation that I had to come up. My ears rang slightly after surfacing, which has never happened after only 4 minutes! :duh
2nd static: 4'15"-ish....same feeling. Contractions delayed a bit longer but same horrible feeling. I didn't feel like blacking out, just that each contraction was taking a huge chunk out of me.
3rd static: 5'01"...slightly easier, contractions at 3'30" but quickly became unbearable and I just felt exhausted.
This would appear to be overtraining or fatigue or both since I can usually make 5 minutes on a first breath hold with ease.
I don't think that in this state I am making any progress. I am taking tomorrow night off and I will nourish my body. That may not be enough....
Another thing that I find is very relevant to this discussion is how static training intersects with real life:
-the reason that I do only 3 attempts is that since Eric and I train together, 3 attempts each takes about 2 hours in the pool + travel time to and from the pool. More than that and I feel like I'm wasting time. If I didn't work and could schedule statics I would do them at 4-6 pm, fitting it in with eating schedules and proper sleep patterns. Unfortunately, that's not an option right now.
-Because of the pool hours and work :hungover we generally can only go to the pool at 7:00-7:30 pm. This means we don't leave until 9:00-9:30 pm.
-When to eat? I find eating late at night throws off my whole feeling of well-being. So I don't eat that much at night during static training. But no doubt the body needs nourishment to make adaptations and anti-oxidants to clear away the waste products. Today I felt as though I was laced with acid.
In the past I've noticed that it is rare that I have two consecutive days of progress, more often the second day is an "off day," where my times drop to 4'00-5'00. Not enough recovery time sounds like a reasonable explanation when you are making attempts close to my pb.
I have to remind myself that I haven't adapted to this kind of training like Tom Sietas has. Just like an Olympic swimmer who trains at an intensity that would probably kill me, I imagine static apnea is no different. Getting even close to that level takes months or years, not days.
Eric went after me:
1st static: 4'30" and it looked difficult. I was starting to wonder if he was also burnt out.
2nd: 7'08" Very strong. A new pb in training (but not in competition).
Eric is getting 8-10 hours of sleep as well but also noted that he felt acidic in general.
Jason: I never do any purging before a static. Even breathing through my mouth is sometimes enough to give me symptoms of over-ventilation (buzzing in fingers, lips, delayed contractions, mental fuzziness late in a breath hold), so I've done away with it. I know that Tom seems to do one or two small purges before going, but maybe his body can handle that. I'd like to ask him about that.
I think that this idea is too simplistic (it is one that I used to believe in, as evidenced by my experience with different methods of hyperventilation :duh) because of the importance of the Bohr effect (acidity) and the perils of the Haldane effect (alkalinity). If getting rid of CO2 is the limiting factor in static apnea, then why doesn't Tom Sietas HYPERVENTILATE for 10 minutes? The problem with hyperventilating for 10 minutes is that your blood becomes so alkaline that hemoglobin affinty for oxygen skyrockets and no longer releases sufficient oxygen to brain and tissues--> black out. Remember le Japonais in the Big Blue?
The other problem with this point of view is the "evidence" it is based on. I assume that the studies cited showed trained freedivers in contrast to untrained people. Anyone with even a bit of training can hold their breath past that psychological break point, which is a significant difference. Even if the studies compared freedivers doing statics with and without purging, the results are meaningless because (I assume) the majority have been training to use purges and have not adapted to statics without any breathe up. So if in 2001 you asked me to be a part of this study (when I was using multiple warm ups and different forms of hyperventilation) and try statics with and without a warm-up, no doubt I would have said that hyperventilation was the better way.
I think purging and a "breathe-up" confuse us by making the static appear "easier." But "easier" does not always mean "better."
Okay, I need to sleep now. Thanks for sharing everybody.
Pete Scott
Vancouver, BC
Hi Pete,
Great posts! Thanks for sharing your ideas with us.
I have one question concerning contractions. I was tought that contractions are bad because they consume oxygen. Thus I was trying to get contractions as late and as few as possible.
I really like this 'No warm-up' static and I am about to start with working on it.
Should I let the cotractions go and focus on relaxing or should I try to delay them with my mind?
Great posts! Thanks for sharing your ideas with us.
I have one question concerning contractions. I was tought that contractions are bad because they consume oxygen. Thus I was trying to get contractions as late and as few as possible.
I really like this 'No warm-up' static and I am about to start with working on it.
Should I let the cotractions go and focus on relaxing or should I try to delay them with my mind?
O'boy,
I have found that the lowest oxygen consumption occurs when the urge to breathe comes very early. The sooner the urge to breathe hits you, the sooner your oxygen consumption goes down.
Of course, if the urge to breathe comes early, you might be getting body-buckling contractions later on. Avoid that.
The best breath-hold (I think) should be done with an 'early urge to breathe', but with resisting the contractions and relaxing at the same time.
If you feel no urge to breathe at all, then your O2 consumption will be high. So, delaying the urge to breathe until the very end, by aggressive breathing, is counter-productive... in many ways.
As an example, my highest SaO2 at the 5-minute mark came on a breath-hold in which contractions came around 3'45". I have done several breath holds where I reached the 5-minute mark without contractions, and my oxygen level was way worse at 5-minutes, because the urge to breathe never came, meaning my O2 consumption never dropped.
I have found that the lowest oxygen consumption occurs when the urge to breathe comes very early. The sooner the urge to breathe hits you, the sooner your oxygen consumption goes down.
Of course, if the urge to breathe comes early, you might be getting body-buckling contractions later on. Avoid that.
The best breath-hold (I think) should be done with an 'early urge to breathe', but with resisting the contractions and relaxing at the same time.
If you feel no urge to breathe at all, then your O2 consumption will be high. So, delaying the urge to breathe until the very end, by aggressive breathing, is counter-productive... in many ways.
As an example, my highest SaO2 at the 5-minute mark came on a breath-hold in which contractions came around 3'45". I have done several breath holds where I reached the 5-minute mark without contractions, and my oxygen level was way worse at 5-minutes, because the urge to breathe never came, meaning my O2 consumption never dropped.
I tried some statics with very little hyperventilation, and they were so difficult. I gave up at about 3:30 because of a very strong urge to breathe, and it became worse with each one, even with rests in between. The second one felt close to the limit, even if 3:30 is much shorter than my normal second dry static.
The problem is that when the urge to breathe gets strong because of CO2, I become tense and my heart rate goes up, which limits the time I can do.
I will stick to my normal method for now, but when I'm feeling brave I'll give it another try.
Lucia
The problem is that when the urge to breathe gets strong because of CO2, I become tense and my heart rate goes up, which limits the time I can do.
I will stick to my normal method for now, but when I'm feeling brave I'll give it another try.
Lucia
Hello people
I was thinking about changing the way I do staticks for some time and I found this thread very inspiring. I will start with this approach to statics with new year, and will let you know how it works for me.
Currently hit the 4:07 mark and 70+ contractions and its getting way better than I would ever think. Contractions are the same, but I sorta feel them in a different way
Good luck and keep this thread alive ... its a gem
Kars: a little of topic (not that much but hey) - I have noticed someone mentioned your name and sungazing together. If thats true can you please tell me how long do you practice/ or on what time are you now and if it helps you in freediving?. I have started SG right now ... waiting for a little more sun to come .... )
Thank you
ISTS
I was thinking about changing the way I do staticks for some time and I found this thread very inspiring. I will start with this approach to statics with new year, and will let you know how it works for me.
Currently hit the 4:07 mark and 70+ contractions and its getting way better than I would ever think. Contractions are the same, but I sorta feel them in a different way
Good luck and keep this thread alive ... its a gem
Kars: a little of topic (not that much but hey
) - I have noticed someone mentioned your name and sungazing together. If thats true can you please tell me how long do you practice/ or on what time are you now and if it helps you in freediving?. I have started SG right now ... waiting for a little more sun to come .... )Thank you
ISTS
During training for the Canadian Eastern Regional Championships I woke my wife up a few times by purging in my sleep and once even doing a breathold to the point of having some serious contractions. I didn't remember a thing.
Jason
Jason
Hyperventilation
I often train with this aproach:
5-7min relaxing in the sofa, no hyperventilation at all. (maybe slight hypoventilatin, hard to know, I don't focus on the breathing I just relax)
With this method I get my first contractions between 1'40''-1'55''. Yesterday I did, inspired of the theory of laminar, my new pb this way, 4'00'' at the first breathhold, 1 contraction @ 1'50'' and also a new "contraction pb", 50 contractions in 2'10''. It was a VERY VERY tough breathhold.
The thing that made me push it was the thought of that this training may result in adaptations to hypoxia / breathholding
Having tried many different aproaches to breathing I belive that most people hyperventilates. As a freediver focus on breathing it will probably result in some hyperventilation (hypocapnia) even if the clear symtoms is not present.
My belief has always been that a slight (no symtoms) hyperventilation is the best for a maximum performance.
Examples for me:
-No hyperventilation at all, not thinking of my breathing---contractions @ 1'40''-1'55''---> I can not get to my max.
-Slight hyperventilation, focus on breathing, but quiet breathing, no symtoms of hypocapnia--->contractions @ 3'30''-4'00''---> Her I have done my best statics.
-Hyperventilation with symtoms of hypocapnia--->contractions @ 4'10''-4'30''--> Almost always resulting in feeling really bad @5'30'' and a decreased performance.
Peter/Eric--Don't you hyperventilate slightly when you get contractions @ 3'00'' for example???
Maybe my 1'50'' contractions is due to hypoventilation???
For some days ago I did an exception to my "rule" doing hyperventilation and my contractions started @ 4'36'' and I got a new pb of 6'16'' and no horrible hypoxia seemed to be present. This is strange. I was totally clear :wave
The funny thing is that this occured after 2 months of only training 1 static with no hyperventilation.
I am going to train with the method of no hyperventilation and no warmups because I have not progressed in some years like Peter mentioned is the case for many divers...
Maybe it is the strong hypercapnia that get the body to adapt to hypoxia??
I often train with this aproach:
5-7min relaxing in the sofa, no hyperventilation at all. (maybe slight hypoventilatin, hard to know, I don't focus on the breathing I just relax)
With this method I get my first contractions between 1'40''-1'55''. Yesterday I did, inspired of the theory of laminar, my new pb this way, 4'00'' at the first breathhold, 1 contraction @ 1'50'' and also a new "contraction pb", 50 contractions in 2'10''. It was a VERY VERY tough breathhold.
The thing that made me push it was the thought of that this training may result in adaptations to hypoxia / breathholding
Having tried many different aproaches to breathing I belive that most people hyperventilates. As a freediver focus on breathing it will probably result in some hyperventilation (hypocapnia) even if the clear symtoms is not present.
My belief has always been that a slight (no symtoms) hyperventilation is the best for a maximum performance.
Examples for me:
-No hyperventilation at all, not thinking of my breathing---contractions @ 1'40''-1'55''---> I can not get to my max.
-Slight hyperventilation, focus on breathing, but quiet breathing, no symtoms of hypocapnia--->contractions @ 3'30''-4'00''---> Her I have done my best statics.
-Hyperventilation with symtoms of hypocapnia--->contractions @ 4'10''-4'30''--> Almost always resulting in feeling really bad @5'30'' and a decreased performance.
Peter/Eric--Don't you hyperventilate slightly when you get contractions @ 3'00'' for example???
Maybe my 1'50'' contractions is due to hypoventilation???
For some days ago I did an exception to my "rule" doing hyperventilation and my contractions started @ 4'36'' and I got a new pb of 6'16'' and no horrible hypoxia seemed to be present. This is strange. I was totally clear :wave
The funny thing is that this occured after 2 months of only training 1 static with no hyperventilation.
I am going to train with the method of no hyperventilation and no warmups because I have not progressed in some years like Peter mentioned is the case for many divers...
Maybe it is the strong hypercapnia that get the body to adapt to hypoxia??
Hi Lucia,
Yes, when contractions come hard and fast it can be discouraging. Here are some methods I would use to get to a stage where longer first breath statics are possible:
-Do static apnea in the water: I always find that dry statics are much more difficult when it comes to hypercapnia. I never do dry statics anymore for that reason. In the water, you are cooler, vasocontricted, and probably have some blood shunt happening. All good. Also I also feel way more relaxed.
-Interval training with a whole body exercise (ergometer/rowing machine, running sprints, swimming, X-C skiing, fast hiking, even downhill skiing (if you are relatively good is a kind of interval training). Keep it short and sweet and high intensity. Be mindful that this kind of training can cause injury or overtraining.
-Long recoveries between max statics (5-8 minutes). Statics create acid and if you are not hyperventilating, you'll need longer to return to a more normal blood pH.
-Apnea walking or cycling (dry): But I think that although this may have benefits for dealing with hypercapnia, the adaptations are mostly for actual diving under water, ie. apnea while moving.
I used to do CO2 tables quite a bit, especially the 1 breath, 2'00", one breath recovery, 2'00" etc... until I'd get contractions at less than a minute. But I don't really think that it has any long term benefit.
I think derelictp is right. Doing 2-3 max statics if you can't reach the point where you start to get hypoxic IS a CO2 table. And when that gets easier, and your times are extended, you don't have to change anything.
Derelictp,
Your analysis of your best results and worse results with different degrees of ventilation is good, except that I think you don't have enough data to say that no ventilation max statics do not allow you to get to your maximum.
However, everyone is a little different, and some active breathing might eventually work to make a static better. I think we can only figure this out after many days of trying one method the same every time, in the context of daily variations of metabolism, energy levels, fatigue, mental determination, etc...
When you say that you relaxed on the sofa for 5-7 minutes, it strikes me as not being long enough, especially if you were up and about, walking around. Remember that Tom will stay motionless for 12 minutes. And I imagine he's fairly calm and quiet before that. I mention this because contractions at 2 minutes sounds pretty early for you, if you can usually get contractions at 3 minutes. Also, are these all dry statics? In my experience, I can handle much higher levels of hyperventilation dry vs. wet. If I hyperventilate even slightly in the water, I feel it immediately. And most often, it is not good.
If I get contractions earlier than 3'15"-3'30" I know that something else is not right. Hyperventilating with not solve it.
Jason,
I've heard of other people holding their breath in their sleep. TylerZ told me once he got contractions for a minute before he was woken up. Glad to see that both you and Julie competed at the Regionals. I look forward to the monster next year.
Jilly,
:inlove I call this training session the Scott-Fattah Variations of the Sietas Protocols in C02 minor :wave Hopefully this symphony of hypoxia will turn out some beautiful music next summer..
Yes, when contractions come hard and fast it can be discouraging. Here are some methods I would use to get to a stage where longer first breath statics are possible:
-Do static apnea in the water: I always find that dry statics are much more difficult when it comes to hypercapnia. I never do dry statics anymore for that reason. In the water, you are cooler, vasocontricted, and probably have some blood shunt happening. All good. Also I also feel way more relaxed.
-Interval training with a whole body exercise (ergometer/rowing machine, running sprints, swimming, X-C skiing, fast hiking, even downhill skiing (if you are relatively good is a kind of interval training). Keep it short and sweet and high intensity. Be mindful that this kind of training can cause injury or overtraining.
-Long recoveries between max statics (5-8 minutes). Statics create acid and if you are not hyperventilating, you'll need longer to return to a more normal blood pH.
-Apnea walking or cycling (dry): But I think that although this may have benefits for dealing with hypercapnia, the adaptations are mostly for actual diving under water, ie. apnea while moving.
I used to do CO2 tables quite a bit, especially the 1 breath, 2'00", one breath recovery, 2'00" etc... until I'd get contractions at less than a minute. But I don't really think that it has any long term benefit.
I think derelictp is right. Doing 2-3 max statics if you can't reach the point where you start to get hypoxic IS a CO2 table. And when that gets easier, and your times are extended, you don't have to change anything.
Derelictp,
Your analysis of your best results and worse results with different degrees of ventilation is good, except that I think you don't have enough data to say that no ventilation max statics do not allow you to get to your maximum.
However, everyone is a little different, and some active breathing might eventually work to make a static better. I think we can only figure this out after many days of trying one method the same every time, in the context of daily variations of metabolism, energy levels, fatigue, mental determination, etc...
When you say that you relaxed on the sofa for 5-7 minutes, it strikes me as not being long enough, especially if you were up and about, walking around. Remember that Tom will stay motionless for 12 minutes. And I imagine he's fairly calm and quiet before that. I mention this because contractions at 2 minutes sounds pretty early for you, if you can usually get contractions at 3 minutes. Also, are these all dry statics? In my experience, I can handle much higher levels of hyperventilation dry vs. wet. If I hyperventilate even slightly in the water, I feel it immediately. And most often, it is not good.
If I get contractions earlier than 3'15"-3'30" I know that something else is not right. Hyperventilating with not solve it.
Jason,
I've heard of other people holding their breath in their sleep. TylerZ told me once he got contractions for a minute before he was woken up. Glad to see that both you and Julie competed at the Regionals. I look forward to the monster next year.
Jilly,
:inlove I call this training session the Scott-Fattah Variations of the Sietas Protocols in C02 minor :wave Hopefully this symphony of hypoxia will turn out some beautiful music next summer..
When I do statics with no breathe-up, my usual 'breathing' pattern is just two breaths, then hold, in the following pattern:
- Inhale, hold for 10-20 seconds, exhale slowly
- Inhale, hold for 10-20 seconds, exhale slowly
- Inhale, pack to the max, start the apnea
The latest I ever got the first contraction with that method was 5'15" after doing 3 hours of chi-gong and then watching TV and drinking a can of coke (phosphoric acid).
In order to have any hope in the no-breathing method of static, I think two things are necessary:
1. LONG rest without any physical activity (this is true for all static, but it shows up more without any breathe-up)
2. Generally alkaline body (a highly acidic diet will put you at a great penalty)
- Inhale, hold for 10-20 seconds, exhale slowly
- Inhale, hold for 10-20 seconds, exhale slowly
- Inhale, pack to the max, start the apnea
The latest I ever got the first contraction with that method was 5'15" after doing 3 hours of chi-gong and then watching TV and drinking a can of coke (phosphoric acid).
In order to have any hope in the no-breathing method of static, I think two things are necessary:
1. LONG rest without any physical activity (this is true for all static, but it shows up more without any breathe-up)
2. Generally alkaline body (a highly acidic diet will put you at a great penalty)
My experience is very similar with Derelictp, actually my times are very close. With the "old style" breathholding, there is a definite point where hyperventilation stops being useful, but some is required to go for max. With too much hyperventilation there'll be dizzyness, needles on fingers etc. Very late contractions (I think max 5:15 or something), but a very sharp decline after that and end up feeling horrible with 10-15 contractions.
However, I've only tried the contractions method now in 4 sessions, and already I can see my times closing in on my old pb. This is such a short time training, that it would seem very likely that one day I will reach or even pass those times.
Today was far from optimum and I was unable to concentrate or relax really well. Holiday season is creeping to the pool too. They even played christmas songs, ugh. Anyway, I did a 5:30 (70 contractions from 3:30) and 5:58 (60 from 4:15 or so). I think I might have even had it in me to go to ~6:30 if I didn't have to fight coughing for the first 3 minutes.
Anyway, I'll have to do it longer to really know.
By the way, I find that contractions are easier, mellower and less frequent in the water too. But the weird thing is, I can push further dry, even though it's clearly a tougher hold (ears ringing and what not). I think this has to do with some primitive drowning fobia or something, but in the water I'm always more vary and conservative, even if it's subconcious. It used to be even worse, but it's getting better with practise. It's a kind of "I could go longer, but what if I pass out and inhale water or something" kind of fear. I think that was the most contributing factor in the huge difference in dry vs. wet pb for me earlier...
However, I've only tried the contractions method now in 4 sessions, and already I can see my times closing in on my old pb. This is such a short time training, that it would seem very likely that one day I will reach or even pass those times.
Today was far from optimum and I was unable to concentrate or relax really well. Holiday season is creeping to the pool too. They even played christmas songs, ugh. Anyway, I did a 5:30 (70 contractions from 3:30) and 5:58 (60 from 4:15 or so). I think I might have even had it in me to go to ~6:30 if I didn't have to fight coughing for the first 3 minutes.
Anyway, I'll have to do it longer to really know.
By the way, I find that contractions are easier, mellower and less frequent in the water too. But the weird thing is, I can push further dry, even though it's clearly a tougher hold (ears ringing and what not). I think this has to do with some primitive drowning fobia or something, but in the water I'm always more vary and conservative, even if it's subconcious. It used to be even worse, but it's getting better with practise. It's a kind of "I could go longer, but what if I pass out and inhale water or something" kind of fear. I think that was the most contributing factor in the huge difference in dry vs. wet pb for me earlier...
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Purging is just one form of ventilating CO2. Most people use it as a last focused ventilation at the end of more gentle ventilations. The validity of sudden aggressive ventilations is questionable. Since the same ventilation of CO2 can be achieved using rapid light ventilations, or longer gentle ventilations. However, there may be more complex issues at work, such as those explored by Eric Fattah regarding tissue vs blood acidity, etc... I suspect that is where the real differences lie. Back in 2002 the reason I initially tried a static with no warm-up and rapid hyperventilation, was because it occurred to me that the long slow breath-ups were essentially the same thing, just taking longer. All breath-ups are a form of hyperventilating. Play with the variables (time, exertion, relaxation, breath frequency, etc...) and you can probably find that all breath-ups have an equivalent to each other with some combination, in terms of blood acidity (CO2 build-up).Jason Billows said:
Remember Pete and Eric are referring to a very different warm-up procedure as opposed to a very different breath-up. Therefore they are still ventilating significant amounts of CO2. And if you refer back to the study Jason refers to, then you also find that the study found that freedivers ventilate CO2 more effectively than untrained persons. Which suggests what seems like a breath-up that should not significantly ventilate CO2, could very well be doing that.
So, even though the studies suggest CO2 levels at the end of a breathhold are what bring the breathhold to an end, that does not go against the techniques that are being presented by Pete and Eric, as far as I can tell. However, at the scientific talks I inquired as to whether there had been any studies towards people holding their breath until samba/BO which, in my opinion, would really tell if CO2 was the issue or O2. Actually I am not sure how one could account for people reaching samba, if CO2 was the end factor, unless these are CO2 LMC/BO. However, SaO2 levels tested by some of us, suggest we are hitting O2 LMC/BO. Something which the tests didn't even get close to. I think I remember the doctor stating that it was amazing that SaO2 levels reached lower than 80% in some subjects. Well, that was rather funny to hear, when a few of us regularly play below 50%. Many readings even in the high 20s to 30s for myself, but most likely due to hardware errors at those stages, more likely 40%.
I think it should have been clarified by the doctor, that CO2 was the limiting factor for test subjects that could not hold their breath until LMC/BO. Which is experienced by most of us. So, quite expected.
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