Static with no warm-up

[tylerz]

One other point that seems to always get left out when talking about preparations and warm-ups, especially regarding time, is that we are all very different when it comes to CO2. That is we are all different when it comes to the following:
- body and blood acidity
- buffers
- CO2 ventilating effectiveness
- metabolism
- rate of metabolism adjustments
- body temperature
- blood volume
- etc...

All which can affect the build-up and sensations of CO2 and ones comfort levels. So, I think we have to take any mentions of "time" worth a grain of salt. It is probably something that can be better compared if we all had a reference static with no breath-up and no warm-up. Then if you find yourself much lower than another, there is a high chance that it will take you more time/technique in a breath-up/warm-up to reach comparable starting CO2 levels.

 

[jome]

Good point and that's why I was so surprised that derelictp's times were so close to me, since there is no "common to all" contractions start time. Obviously it's highly individual and even varies from day to day.

That's why I try to get one message across to people who ask me about static. No matter how much you read, discuss or get advice, you have to do TONS of statics and play around with variables to understand what is the best method for YOU. You may read all the discussions in DB if you want, but if you only do static 2 times per year, it's very likely you won't be making much progress.

I've done 3-4 (total dry and wet) statics per week since June every week, having a break now and then for about a week. And almost every day I find something new and think "so this is what they were talking about...". When we read about people doing this or that ventilation, it's always just and idea. The actual implementation to your own body has to be done with personal experimenting. There's no point in copying someones preparation down to every detail.

It's much the same as with equalization. I often hear things like "yeah I tried the Fattah doc one night...Didn't work for me. I guess I have bad tubes or something". Not counting a lucky few, it can take months to get that first "sort of frenzel" going and a lot longer still to be confident in using it...Not to mention countless dives.

But this is getting a bit off topic now...

 

[O'Boy]

My 'No warm-up' statics look exactly like those of Derelictp.
Yestreday I did 3 attempts after 5 minutes of relaxing:
3'19"(@1'44",15 contr.)
3'39"(@1'56",15x)
3'35"(@1'58",15x).
My focus is on delaying contractions. Even though my first contraction comes really early I was able to move it from 1'30" to 1'58" in 2 weeks. Hope that it will continue this way.
I am just in the 2nd phase of Laminar's training. That means no time PBs, just get my body accustomed to this new way of apnea.

 

[derelictp]

I agree with laminar and others that we have to spend time with new methods to really figure out what's in it. My earlier post states what works best for me right now and that does not mean that it's the truth in 3months or 2 years...

An other example: It took me 2 years of training to get the FF-equalization to work every dive without failure. Now my equalization is 15-20m better then with the diafragmatic frenzel.

By the way; This morning i did a static without warmup and hyperventilation. I did in in bed before going up. I woke up, waited 10min and relaxed. The contractions came at 2'05''. I did not push it I just wanted to know how much the contractions where delayed after more relaxation.

The time increased a little to 1st contraction obviosly but there where other variables that differed from my earlier attempts at nights, food intake for example...

Tyler is right, in my opinion, when he say that there is a very big difference in peoples times to the fysiological breakpoint. A very big difference is, in my opinion, that what 1 person states is hyperventilation is not hyperventilation in an other persons "world".

For me no hyperventilation is when we don't think about breathing and let the body breath.

 

[naiad]

I gave it another try and did 4:18. This was after a normal max static. It felt better than last time, so I'm more determined to keep trying.

Lucia

 

[Jason Billows]

I have another question about sub-neutral breathing. I understand that one of the major benefits of this type of breathing is the reduced exertion and ability to relax more and keep all tissues saturated. But, how do you take your final breath? I would think that a final big breath would do exactly what you've been avoiding throughout the breath-up. To avoid that do you take only a partial breath (say 3/4 max) and then pack the rest of the way, using only mouth and throat muscles and therefore exerting yourself less?

Also, when packing, how far do you pack? At what point does the effort to keep your breath become more detrimental than the benefits of having the extra air?

Jason

 

[laminar]

Hey Tyler,

Tofino surfing, here we come!

I second your thought about everyone having a host of different variables that they must explore for themselves.

However, perhaps I need to define something more clearly in relation to what you said here:

Remember Pete and Eric are referring to a very different warm-up procedure as opposed to a very different breath-up. Therefore they are still ventilating significant amounts of CO2. And if you refer back to the study Jason refers to, then you also find that the study found that freedivers ventilate CO2 more effectively than untrained persons. Which suggests what seems like a breath-up that should not significantly ventilate CO2, could very well be doing that.

To me, the term "ventilating C02" implies getting rid of CO2 that would normally be present in the blood at the resting state ("resting state" being the ideal state to be in for static apnea). This is equivalent to hyperventilation in my mind, because the effect is the same and the difference is in degree and in semantics (especially among freedivers).

When I prepare for the first "no-breathe up" static I breathe normally. Am I ventilating CO2? No, not if we agree that ventilating CO2 takes some additional effort and results in a lowering of carbonic acid in the blood. My goal in not doing a warm-up is to start the static with a "normal" level of blood pH, buffers and acids and whatever else exists in there. This normal state will of course vary from day to day.

Your point that ventilations can be equivalent whether you hyperventilate like a madman for 2 minutes, or do slow pursed-lip breathing twice a minute for ten minutes is also good. But I "feel" that with the subneutral breathing that I do, I could do it for infinity and still not "ventilate C02." (relative to unconscious breathing at rest).

So in my "warm-up" (which is different from Eric's, it turns out), I believe I am not "ventilating significant amounts of CO2." On the contrary, I believe my preparation seeks a homeostatis of a great many variables.

Jason,

Taking the last breath is energy intensive compared to 5-10 minutes of sub-neutral breathing. But consider that your static begins when you take that deep breath and begin packing, not when you finish packing. And yes, inhaling less and packing the rest probably saves energy. Also, packing speed and volume for each pack can be improved be technique to make it more energy efficient.

I also find (like Panos) that over a week of doing intense statics, my lungs stretch out and I can pack more without tension in the diaphragm. I think this is an important factor in getting longer times: being able to inhale larger volumes of air and pack more in without feeling like you are going to burst.

During training, I pack as much as I can handle, because of the stretch. My last pack goes into my cheeks and I judge the percent of max packing by the time when I can push the air in my cheeks into my lungs. On a very full pack, the air might only go in at 4 or 5 minutes. If the contractions start before I am able to put the air into my lungs, I might release one or two mouth fills of air into the water to relieve the considerable pressure. Eric and I both find resisting and relaxing during contractions easier with less volume in the lungs.

In competition, assuming several days of training with full packing as described above, I would pack to what feels most comfortable, but full. Very subjective, I know.

I think we're going to the pool tonight, I let you know how it goes.

Pete Scott
Vancouver, BC

 

[tylerz]

Pete,

Well, simply tested. Try a static one day without the sub-neutral breathing. Just relax and don't even think about your breathing, so that you end up breathing as you would if you were listening to music sitting at home (or whatever your interest). If you find your static experience to be the same, then I stand corrected about you still ventilating CO2. However, I don't think you will find that to be the case.

Let me know.

 

[tylerz]

No, not if we agree that ventilating CO2 takes some additional effort and results in a lowering of carbonic acid in the blood.

Sub-neutral breathing does require additional effort and you have not checked whether you have lowered carbonic acid or not.

The effort, comes in the form of purposeful controlling of your breathing. When you rest naturally, your body tends to control your breathing based on the levels it expects. It does this with significant changes in breathing depth and frequency. Sometimes we hold our breath for periods without noticing. Sometimes we breath rapidly without noticing. All the while the depth of the breaths are modified. In 1 minute it could have done the whole works, all adjusting to some standard level of CO2. As soon as you add controlled breathing, even if it doesn't feel like effort, or much different than your resting state, you have inadvertently changed the levels of CO2.

But I guess the question that is really at the root here, is what degree is your breathe-up/lack thereof, actually modifying those levels. I think when you say that you feel like you could go on infinitely, that is merely saying that there is a plateau to the degree this breathe-up can reach, where the build-up of CO2 balances out with the rate at which your breathing can effectively remove further CO2 from the blood.

 

[Jason Billows]

One common characteristic I noticed with most of the German team at the Worlds was the amount that they pack. At what lung capacity they began packing I don't know, but it was long.

When safetying for Huber during his dynamic I thought that he had misunderstood the countdown because he started packing so early - at least 30 seconds before top time. As he packed though it was extremely slow and relaxed.

Pete, you mention that you and eric let air out at some point during your static to make the contractions and relaxing a little easier. I also noticed Tom doing this at the Worlds, but on his recent record video it appears he's doing it quite a bit throughout his breathold, even from the early stages. Interesting.

Jason

 

[laminar]

Hi Tyler,

From my perspective and self-awareness of what I am doing while I do sub-neutral breathing it is equivalent to lying on the couch and reading a book. Calling it "sub-neutral" highlights the fact that it is not "ventilation" for other people who are wanting to know what I'm doing. But perhaps to be more accurate I should call it, "a state of resting my chin on my hands, mouth closed, eyes closed, letting my thoughts wander, being dimly aware of sounds and sensations around me, and vaguely aware of some air moving in and out of my nose." I don't count the number, frequency, or duration of breaths.

HI Jason,

I noticed Tom letting air out during his static as well. But I wonder if that is just from not using a nose-clip? I tried doing a static without a noseclip and found that tiny bubbles escaped regardless of my efforts to prevent them. I imagine with contractions, even more bubbles would escape.

Merry Christmas and happy Diwali!

Pete

 

[tylerz]

Pete,

Oh... so you are not controlling your breathing whatsoever? Originally when we were all talking about it in person, we talked about it with controlled frequency. So, I have been addressing it with that assumption. Still I would encourage you to lay down one night at home and listen to a 5 minute song. Only relaxing and paying attention to the music. Then when the song ends, immediately attempt the same type of static.

What I would predict is that even though you are resting at the pool and feeling like you are doing nothing different than on the couch, you may be controlling your breath somewhat habitually from the environment and expectation of performing a static or simply from focusing on relaxing as opposed to "purely" relaxing. You can often see this during meditation, if you become aware of your breathing. You feel very relaxed and it does not feel significantly different than relaxing on the couch. But as you become aware you sense that there is a consistency in the cycle of breathing. This is not a normal state for us. You mentioned in the original text explanation of "sub-neutral" breathing, that due to the nature of the technique it would be very difficult to hyperventilate. If you are leaving the control of breathing up to the natural tendencies of the body, I would agree. However, if you add any control, especially in this case frequency, then I believe it is quite easy to hyperventilate. The attention you place on "sub-neutral" breathing is on limiting the depth of inhale.

But it is the exhale that causes the ventilation of CO2. Shallow breathing can easily perform ventilation. By limiting the inhale to a neutral position, you are required to use more force on the exhale. Neutral position is at rest and only at rest. Neither inhale nor exhale. So, if you put a ceiling on the inhale, then the exhale will compensate, and likewise if you put a floor on the exhale, then the inhale will compensate.

Cheers,

Tyler

 

[naiad]

When I do normal statics, the second one is longer than the first, and the third is longer than the second, as it is for all the other freedivers I know. When I don't do any hyperventilation/controlled breathing, each one is about 3:00-3:30, with no improvement from one to the next. It can even get more difficult. The urge to breathe is less painful this way, but it starts early and puts me off.

Maybe I will try something in between, with less hyperventilation, and see what happens.

Lucia

 

[laminar]

Tyler,

The real issue here is whether or not the breathing I do ventilates CO2 more than with what I can only call "breathing at rest." (breathing at rest may of course include "ventilations" depending on the body's state, depending on the day and the person, but for the purpose of this discussion, I mean a rough homoestatic state).

My answer is that although I may have the intention of actively relaxing and preparing for the static (perhaps this starts to release buffers or induce vasoconstriction by mental stimulus-you never know) and that being wet also has its effects on the body, I am not inhaling or exhaling any MORE often or deeply than "breathing at rest."

But it is the exhale that causes the ventilation of CO2. Shallow breathing can easily perform ventilation. By limiting the inhale to a neutral position, you are required to use more force on the exhale. Neutral position is at rest and only at rest. Neither inhale nor exhale. So, if you put a ceiling on the inhale, then the exhale will compensate, and likewise if you put a floor on the exhale, then the inhale will compensate.

I don't follow this. The whole point of sub neutral breathing as I interpret it is that gravity, thoracic tension and elasticity, all limit the inhalation. You don't ever force the breath beyond what your muscles can do involuntarily. Same on the exhale. It is not breathing actively under a neutral volume point.

Merry Xmas, and I'll be happy to continue this lively discussion in the car on the way to go surfing!!!!!!

 

[tylerz]

To driving discussions here we come! We can post the results of our meanderings, upon return.

Cheers and Merry Christmas all!

 

[derelictp]

Today I did an attempt in the following way:

Relaxed 12min and I thought about my breathing and did sub-neutral diafragmatic breathing but I considered the breathing normal.

My first contraction came at 2'38'' so it seemed that the breathing I was doing took away more C02 than when I did not think about my breathing.

I think that we are slightly hypoventilated normally, the C02 level probably varies between the level where the breathing is stimulated and the level where it turns to not stimulating the breathing.
This cause me to belive that a breathing where the diver takes control is the optimum, at least a part of the preparation. That makes the ppCO2 at a stable level and at the level the diver wants. (I state that a good diver can feel different stages of ppCO2.)

The question remains which level of ppCO2 is the best to start with?

Slightly below normal has been my belief for some years.

Have anyone measured the ppCO2 at the start of a breathhold?

 

[O'Boy]

Did a new PB in 'First hold' yesterday:

4'16" (@1'54", 25 contractions in 2'22")

This was done after 6 minutes of relaxing and not controling my breathing. I was loosing a lot of air with every contraction (overpacking), which I found a bit disturbing. I am slowly but surely approaching to my static PB, but I believe my progress not to stop after reaching it.

Thank you guys for your inventions in this sport. Hope that I too will contribute with my results to the proof that your theory is right.

 

[derelictp]

4'16'' first hold and not controlled breathing is better than my dito pb.:waterwork

My 4'00'' dito was one of my toughest breathholds ever. My contractionrate seems higher though... 50 contractions in 2'10'' or something..

O'boy; What is your pb with warmup?

 

[O'Boy]

My PB with warm-up (dry) is 5'44"(@2'55", 33 contractions). I did it 2 months after I'd started freediving and I was not able to reach it again since. :waterwork
I had some problems over that time with Sambas and BO (competition). I think that time has come to make some changes.
I really do believe in this 'No warm-up' approach. I'm not dreaming about Tom's 9 minutes, but I want to find out where are my limits. Performing 6 minutes, cleanly, in every competition would be enough for me.

This static is unbelievable! You just sit, relax and hold your breath for 5 minutes or so. That's what I like it for. It gives you such mental strenght. I remember me suffocating after 30 seconds of exhale apnea(first in my warm-up) month ago and now after just 2 weeks of training without warm-up I can do 4'16" in my first hold.
Would be interesting to test what I can perform now after warm-up and breath-up.

 

[jome]

I had 110 contractions in 2:20 yesterday. I know some people are even more frequent and in fact on a normal day I would get over 3:10 with that amount.

I think my contractions have gotten more frequent with training. Too bad I don't have data from early on to back this up. Very early on I would barely even get them. Propably has to do with how acidic you are to begin with, which varies from day to day. But with training it seems they are more frequent, but easier to deal with (both in time and number of).