Static with no warm-up

[kingohyes]

I do a 5 minute rest and a 5 minute breathup and go.. I do this 3 times, arent you supposed to do breathup?

 

[O'Boy]

I do a 5 minute rest and a 5 minute breathup and go.. I do this 3 times, arent you supposed to do breathup?

All this thread is about doing static without breath-up and warm-up.

There seems to be a lot of contraction kinds among freedivers. Mine are strong but occur less frequently (I'm also delaying them with my mind). I believe, that your (Jome) are somewhat weaker, but their frequency is so high that the unpleasant feeling is the same. I wonder, which of these kinds is a bigger oxygen eater.

 

[kingohyes]

Damn, I have to start over again... But this is just for training, right?? In a competition you would use a breath-up, like Tom Sietas do??

 

[O'Boy]

I forgot to mention my yesterdays training.

1st hold after 8 minutes of relaxing:
3'56" (@1'40"!, 20 contractions in 2'16")

1st contraction came so soon I wanted to stop. In the end I was happy with new PB in timing 20 contractions - 2'16"!

I'm doing dry statics always sitting in shavasana - sitting with crossed legs, hands relaxing on my thighs. I tryed my second hold yesterday, lying on my back, 8 minutes after the 1st one.

4'11" (2'03", 20 contractions in 2'08")

I felt more relaxed and the time was slightly better, but not as much as I expected.

 

[O'Boy]

No! This is not only training. This is completely new approach to freediving. If you are interested, find some time and reed whole this thread(especially posts of Laminar and EFattah).

I won't do any breath-up or warm-up in my competitions. Maybe I would include some light breath-up before static if I knew my body was in some acicic state. That I want to avoid with diet.

 

[kingohyes]

O'Boy, if your PB is 5.44, and you can do 4:20 with no warm-up or breathups, aren't you eager to see what you can do with breath-ups? I bet you could easily do a 5 minute hold.

My record is 5.15, but I actually dont think I will reach 3 minutes without breathup. Although I believe I will have a strong increase in time doing this method..

I will start using this method in apnea walking, and dynamic too. At this time, I can't get to the pool, so im training some apnea walking to keep my body maintenant..

I wonder what is a reasonable training amount per week.. At this moment my training schedule looks something like this:
Monday: Static
Tuesday: Dynamic
Wednesday: Nothing
Thursday: Static
Friday: Dynamic
Saturday: Nothing
Sunday: Static

 

[jome]

There are many ways to interpret what's been discussed here. Yes, some are suggesting a "no breathup, no warmup"-approach. Some are talking about only no warmup. Originally this thread started with the Tom-style approach, which I believe includes some form of light hyperventilation and then carried on to introduce "subneutral breathing", which supposedly eliminates all hyperventilation (although there's debate even about that).

Personally I use "no breathup, no warmup" as a training method. If I we're to go in a competition right now, I would certainly do some kind of breathup. For me it has been all about reducing hyperventilation, which I used to do quite much and trying to eliminate warmups all together...

kingohyes: I think the most hard part of this style of training is not to slip back to the old style and "see how I would perform now with warmup". The whole point is to kind of start over. Even if one can do pretty good times with the "old style", the assumption is that if you stick with the new method, you will, over time, beat your old times. It just takes a lot of time, motivation and patience. If you go and test your warmup-style performance, it's very easy to lose that motivation. That's why I would think most of the people discussing in this topic are careful about the temptation of doing that, I'm sure they're curious. You must resist the urge...I doubt that there are not many that will be successfull in this transition and will revert back to their old routine after a while.

In fact, it's kind of pointless of us even posting our results here after just a few weeks of trials. We should get back to it after some months or half a year or something.

And it may even prove to be a wrong hypothesis all together, and all of the people trying this approach will eventually fail to gain anything. We'll see!

 

[kingohyes]

I believe in this method.. I hope..
Let's try and post our results once a month. Im going to start on this method in 2 days, and I will post my first results.. In a month im going to post the new results. Did I improve my times? Different contraction rate? and so on...

 

[efattah]

Here is food for thought.

In June 2002, I spent 10 days in Turkey doing experiments and discussions with Trevor Hutton. We spent hours each day, discussing previous experiences, good and bad, trying to figure out 'why.'

The conclusion was simple, and incredible:

- The diving reflex is something which is supposed to happen DURING THE DIVE

The is OPPOSITE to the usual method of 'activating the diving reflex' by various warmups BEFORE THE DIVE (or breath-hold).

In all marine mammals, the diving reflex happens DURING THE DIVE. The seal is suntanning on the surface. His spleen is not contracted, his heart is beating rapidly, oxygenating all parts of his body. When he starts the dive, his heart slows, and eventually his spleen contracts.

Notice that the seal didn't do any warmups, negative pressure dives, or other tricks to slow his heart or contract his spleen BEFORE he started the dive.

This is what Trevor and I discovered after countless hours of talking & experiments. Trevor's decades of freediving experiences were instrumental in this discovery.

At the time, we were not quite certain WHY this conclusion should be true, but one of the answers came some time later, from Sebastien Murat.

Sebastien reminded me that when the spleen contracts at the end of the dive/breath-hold, the fresh, oxygenated blood of the spleen feeds only the critical organs and brain, because by then, the whole body is so vasoconstricted that blood is not feeding the extremities.

This 'optimizes' the use of the 'splenic' energy reserve (spleen blood).

If, on the other hand, you contract your spleen BEFORE THE DIVE, this will make you feel much better in the early stages of the dive, because you have all this extra oxygen in your blood, and more blood to buffer CO2. It makes you feel like you are doing great, that you have 'lots of air left.' But, this oxygen is feeding your arms and legs, because you are not vasoconstricted yet.

When the end of the breath-hold comes and your brain needs oxygen, there is no energy left, because all that 'reserve' was burned by your arms and legs, since the reserve was available to your whole body, even before you were vasoconstricted.

In the no-warm up system of diving, you shouldn't 'feel good' at all in the early stages of the dive. You should feel like you are running out of air early, allowing the spleen to contract DURING THE DIVE.

However, keep in mind that it takes training and adaptation to have a spleen which can contract in only a short time. A beginner will probably not reach 'full' spleen contraction if the spleen tries to contract during the breath-hold. So this is a diving method which must be practiced.

To teach the spleen to contract faster, the 'no-warm up' method must be practiced at 100% effort frequently. Theoretically, this method would also DRAMATICALLY INCREASE THE SIZE OF THE SPLEEN.

Humans have about 4-6 litres of blood. Elephant seals store 24L of blood in their SPLEEN ALONE!

Recall the conclusion:
- The diving reflex is something which is supposed to happen DURING THE DIVE

Another reason this may be true is that when breathing up for your apnea (or just relaxing), you want blood to oxygenate every cell, even in your arms and legs. If you are already vasoconstricted from warm-up dives/breath-holds, then not much blood will pump to your arms and legs. This means that your arms and legs will be O2 deficient BEFORE YOU EVEN START THE DIVE.

Keep in mind that when we say:
- The diving reflex is something which is supposed to happen DURING THE DIVE

We also mean just the 'apnea reflex', i.e. the response to holding your breath, because it is still unclear if all the effects (vasoconstriction, spleen contraction) are happening due to apnea or immersion/diving, but it doesn't matter, the conclusion is still the same.

So, the challenge to all divers is:
- Practice 100% effort apnea on the 1st attempt
- Give your body time to 'reverse' the diving/apnea reflex (perhaps 20 minutes)
- Then you can practice 100% effort apnea on the 1st attempt again, because you are almost starting from scratch
- Once you have practiced for weeks or months, your spleen should be able to fully contract on the duration of one apnea
- Then, attempt to do 100% effort apnea to the point of reaching samba/BO on the 1st attempt. You will probably find that you must reach an insanely long time to do it (but use SAFETY if you are in the water, of course)

Your spleen is not the only thing which must learn to contract quickly. Your arms and legs must learn to vasoconstrict very fast, during the 1st breath-hold/dive. This must also happen through training.

Many expert divers are able to get in the water, and dive to their maximum on the 1st or 2nd dive, without any warm up. In my early days of diving, I would need to dive ALL DAY to even start to have good dives. Now it only takes one or two dives to reach my maximum. BUT, if I dive WITHOUT A WETSUIT in cold water, the cold water speeds up the vasoconstriction, so I can do my max on the 1ST DIVE, with no warm up. HOWEVER, given the strong vasoconstriction, I must NOT do any warm ups, because my arms and legs are so vasoconstricted from the cold water that they will NEVER FULLY RE-OXYGENATE if I do a warm up......

 

[efattah]

One more idea:
- If you hyperventilate, you MIGHT feel so good during the apnea that the spleen will never fully contract. This is because it takes time for the spleen to contract.
- For example, assume it takes 2.5 minutes of hard contractions to fully contract the spleen.....

....wait a minute.... did you hear that...?

Is it possible that the purpose of a contraction is to contract the spleen? Perhaps the spleen needs to be crushed by the diaphragm/belly for its blood to be 'squeezed out'....

Suppose it takes 2'30" of contractions to fully contract the spleen. Then, if you go for 100% effort on the 1st attempt, with strong hypeventilation, and you get only 2'00" of contractions, then your spleen would not have fully contracted... (not to mention you would not have a strong bohr effect).

Mayol, in homo delphinus, said that because dolphins can tolerate higher CO2 (and then get a higher bohr effect), they can extract twice as much oxygen from their blood/lungs than we can. So, from that, it sounds like the ultimate difference between lots of CO2 and no CO2 would be a factor of two, in apnea time.

Interestingly, when the spleen contracts during a long distance running race, the runner is experiencing repeated 'shocks' as he hits the ground of every step, and he is BREATHING HARD, and the movement of his diaphragm and the shock of each step may help the spleen blood to get squeezed out of the spleen.

When holding your breath, there is no 'shock' from bouncing on the ground, and you are not breathing hard, so perhaps your body needs another method to force the spleen blood out. (not to mention that contractions increase the blood pressure in your brain, increasing the availability of O2 to the brain).

 

[jome]

Wow, what a post. Makes a lot of sense when you put it that way.

Even with just a week of trying this method, I'm now able to reach over 90% of my pb on a single max static. Of course that has nothing to do with adaptations to the spleen etc, that would take months/years I assume, but it does prove that reaching my old pb this way is very likely. And so getting past that would seem likely too. So there's no reason not to train this way. It's also nice, that this method doesn't take so much time and drain you out like an hour of warmups, and therefore it's possible to do it almost daily.

When I was writing my previous post, I was battling with the thought of letting go of warmups. I was very tempted to try for a normal pb today, but I'm glad I didn't. There's psychological aspect to it as well. When you know you're only going to do one, you will be able to squeeze more out of it. If I had the luxury of doing many, I would've propably quit earlier thinking "ok, this will be just a warmup". But now, it was just "either do it or don't" and suddenly I found this all new mental reserve and just let go of contractions. I no longer doubt that this method is something worth dedicating a lot of effort to, but it took some convincing to the old noodle. It's hard letting go of those old routines and nice times.

Another nice effect is, that you don't depleat your self with static warmups and I was able to set a dynamic pb on the same session. Should be useful for those competitions, where static and dynamic are on the same day (at least the way it was here in the last pool competition)...

 

[kingohyes]

Lovely theory Eric, and it really made sense.. This is the first good explanation of what contractions may be.
Still im not yet sure for how long I should wait before doing a new max static after 1st attempt. Im currently doing 3 statics on a row with a 5 minute break in between.. Should I increase or decrease the break between the max statics?

 

[donmoore]

Eric's spleen contraction theory might help to explain my dry static yesterday. I usually do one warm up and then go for it, but after bailing out at only 4 minutes on the second one, I decided to do a third. This one appeared to be doing very well and I tied my all-time SaO2 on the pulse/oximeter at 3 minutes with a 100% reading. This has only happened once before. Things looked great, but then the meter started falling, by 5 minutes I was at 80%, which was a disappointing 7% points below my best for 5 minutes.

Could it be that what contributed to my best SaO2 at 3 minutes was the spleen was already contracted? And since it was it could not contract much more and make more blood and O2 available later in the hold?

This might also explain why some times a high SaO2 later in the hold resulted after a lower SaO2 earlier (when compared to previous recorded results). Usually a good SaO2 early on for me will mean high SaO2s through out, but sometimes this rules doesn’t hold.

A lot of things Eric said make sense. The example of good divers with lots of experience being able to dive their max in only 1 or 2 dives is something I have observed too.
don

 

[O'Boy]

My results from yesterday support this theory too.

In my first hold I nearly broke 5 minutes (4'56"). Contractions came soon as usual (1'56") and their rate was somewhat higher (10 in a minute) at the beginning. To my surprise, after 3'00" of contractions (35x), their rate hasn't droped as I have expected (15 in a minute) = maybe spleen contraction?

On my second hold after relaxing for 10 minutes was able brake 5 minutes (5'31"). My first contraction came later (2'20" = spleen contraction from the first hold?) and their rate was a bit lower at the beginning, but in the end, after 3'11" of contractions (40x), the rete was much higher compared to the first hold.

I'm posting my humble results, 'cause I want others to see my progress. I know these results aren't the proof of this theory, yet they may give others some courage. When I'd red Laminar's posts in 'Beyond 6:30' thread, I tried this 'First go' static and was so disappointed after getting contraction at 1'57". I stoped at 2'10" very frustrated. Now I get contractions at exactly the same time, though this time I'm not doing breath-up like I was then.

 

[Jason Billows]

Interesting posts Eric.

They got me thinking about the benefits/limitations a diver creates for themself just by getting into the water prior to a static. If simply getting into the water induces some diving reflexes, is it a good or bad thing to get wet before a static to relax and do facial emersions?

It would seem to me that some of the diving reflexes like bradicardia would be beneficial, but vasoconstriction could limit your ability to build up oxygen stores in the tissues of your extremities. Is the vasoconstriction at that point significant enough to adversely affect your static?

Another thought... does anyone know if the speed at which some diving reflexes are induced affects the speed at which others will follow. For example, if bradicardia and vasoconstriction can be induced quickly, will spleenic contraction follow more quickly? If so, would it be more beneficial to do statics without a wetsuit to induce the early diving reflexes more quickly?

I would think that the speed at which spleenic contraction starts wouldn't necessarily affect the length of a static as the oxygen stored in the spleen would be limited, but it could make the static more comfortable. With oxygen available from the spleen earlier in your hold it could save you from much of the struggle and give you a mental edge.

Thoughts?

Jason

 

[Jason Billows]

I'm interested to know people's thoughts on how these discussions affect constant training.

While I think that the benefits of no warm-up/breath-up in static will apply directly to breath hold time in constant ballast, it could work against the need for pressure adaptation.

Are negative pressure dives before a constant attempt necessary to prepare the lungs and diaphram for the pressure they will experience on the dive itself? Or, is diaphram stretching and pressure simulation something that should be done in training on a regular basis to build flexibility and preparedness, eliminating the need for negative pressure dives prior to a contstant attempt?

I would think that negative pressure dives would certainly start spleenic contraction before the constant attempt itself. Then again, as constant dives are typically much shorter than static performances, this could be a good thing. Thoughts?

Jason

 

[kingohyes]

Hi again..

I did my first no-warmup, no breath-up training today, dry. I did 10 minutes of relaxation, inhale and go. This pattern I followed for 3 statics on row.

1. 3.28 (62! contrations started @1:46)
2. 3.35 (90!! contractions started @1.45)
3. 3.40 (92!!! contractions started @1.53)

I was very pleased by the times I achieved in my first session with this no breathup method. I would have expected a time around 2 minutes
What surprised me the most, were that I was able to withstand 92 contractions on 3rd attempt. When I did my record of 5.15, I dont think I had more than about 50-60 contractions.

The contractions came early, and this frightened me a bit, since I would have expected the contractions to be as hard as they were with a breathup.. Luckily they weren't

I will post my results on this page, I even made a excel document with a chart/diagram where I can follow my progress..

I hope that all these contractions doesn't mean im in bad shape.

Kingohyes

 

[watts]

Did my first no hyperventilation one hold static then. The contractions did come earlier aswell at about 2.30 but nowhere near as bad as with a breathe up. I managed 3.33 on my first try so ive got something to work on. With a breathe up i wasnt getting them till about 4 mins but they would then come on hard and totally wreck my static ,my pb being 5.05 . Im definetely going to persist with this i'll keep you posted Cheers & HAPPY NEW YEAR :wave

 

[O'Boy]

Hey, Kinghoyes and Watts.
Good to see some other people trying this method too. :wave
Your results are almost the same as mine. Now, it's important to proceed every day and increase the number of contractions, or even better increase the time spent with them. Don't worry about the time when they start, that will only disturb you. :head

It's important also to concentrate on your first hold. There should be the best conditions for MAX static. Your first hold prooves that, Kinghoyes.
You had 62 contractions in 1'42" and in your third hold you had 92 contractions in 1'47".

Yesterday, I nearly broke my 2 years old, absolut PB in static (5'44"). After 10 minutes of relaxation I did:

5'31" (@1'48", 40 contractions in 3'43"!)

My goal was to withstand more contractions then day before (35). I was not aware of the time so I stoped the hold after reaching 40. If I knew the time I would push it a bit more. In fact, I felt very good in the end. Contractions were tolerable and their rate hasn't raised too much. Maybe it's time to try my max with this metod.

This may be just my subjective feeling, but I feel really fresh after such hold. It needs only 2 breaths to recover. Compared to my feelings after doing 5'30" in the old way, there is definitelly an improvement.

Wish you all the best in the year 2005.

 

[watts]

In fact, I felt very good in the end. Contractions were tolerable and their rate hasn't raised too much. Maybe it's time to try my max with this metod.

I felt exactly the same. Other than tommorow :duh i will do 1 max static per day and post here again in a week. Later Nathan