very deep dives without mouthfil?

[Simos]

Thanks Dane - completely agree on your analogy with the tools. In fact I was thinking of exactly the same one - right tool for the job and all that. And I don't doubt that mouthfil is such a tool for deep diving, after all the results speak for themselves.
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[efattah]

Certainly the mouthfill introduces risks of squeeze, since it becomes possible to dive to an incredible depth even with totally empty lungs. In my case diving on a 100% forceful exhale I must stop at 30.5m to avoid squeeze, even though the mouthfill could take me down another 10m. But beginners may not sense the squeeze coming and could injure themselves, and in fact I think many people have been injured in this way -- but then, many people have also been injured by trying to do forceful abdominal frenzel equalizations at depth as well...

It is quite easy to dive to 90m with 'mild' mouthfill, no breaking of streamlining, no forceful effort, and so on. Only for very deep dives is a huge mouthfill needed.

And of course the mouthfill depth can be extended with flexibility. When I started FRC diving the deepest I could fill my mouth was 9m. Over a couple of years I extended that to 17m due to increased flexibility.

 

[Simos]

Thanks for the info Eric...

Would be interesting to talk about other methods of going deep without a mouthfil (or at least without a single mouthfil). After all that's the title of the thread

Will explained his method and I think Aharon mentioned something about Martin's method for his 122m CWT dive? If I recall he said he used a cheek fill at 55m and air scavenging? Anyone knows what air scavenging exactly is or how it's done?
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[mortenkv]

Very interesting thread - thanks to all contributers... I find it very surprising to hear that you, Will, is not diving with the single-mouthfill technique (until now, at least) it seems, but still made lots of +100m dives succesfully. (!!!)

Personally I have only been diving to the dpth of 74m (single-mouthfill at 25-27m -ish) with a Sphera (last mask EQ at mouthfill-depth). Still a small Moufthfill left at that depth.

The benefits and the math (in Erics post) about the single-moouthfill technique is standard stuff in AIDA education system and not that "advanced" at all... It is included (and pinned out) in the AIDA 4 star course (32-38m depth CWT) and what I consider "basic" knowledge for freedivers - I thought we all were doing the same thing . So Im suprised - and find it very interesting that others do things differently, thou Im not finding the single-mouthfill technique challenged in this thread (so far)

Isnt the mouthfill technique a part of the AA material?

Thanks to Eric for sharing the techniques - and Im looking forward to see where the approach from Will and Dave (single mouthfill, shallower) will take you!

- and still waiting to hear what new(?) knowledge Mr. Greatwood have decided to share in his book!

Keep sharing - you will have your reward in heaven! (or in the depths...)
Morten

 

[Walrus]

Hi Eric,
I was using a "good mouthfill" at 35m, then topping it up a couple of time until maybe 60m, then had a "good mouthfill" at that depth. No breaking of streamline, and little effort. I still could equalise at the plate at 110m, no squeeze or any stressful reverse packing. I equalised to 121m head down on a variable dive but not sure where my last eq was, too Narced

What's wrong with this approach ?
I only had 4 weeks of training to get to these depths so spent little time in the ocean. I'm sure with more depth training would be able to EQ heaps deeper with better flexibility etc.

Cheers,
Wal

 

[Simos]

Hi Morten (disclaimer: I've no idea what's in the AIDA 4* ) - I can't see how even the single mouthfil is standard knowledge? Maybe the theory is simple but in practice there seems to be considerable discrepancy in the way people do it and the factors involved. Eg. Eric quotes a concervative factor of 4.5 if I remember correctly but with your numbers it seems to be around 2.5-3 (3 if you were able to EQ to 95m obviously). Of course you are diving with a mask which as Eric points out makes a difference.)

The factor achieved by each individual is obviously very central to the mouthfil - if say you are achieving 2.5 on a 25m mouthfil (not shallow!) the you are going to around 78m. In the most recent VB Igor did around 80m if I am not wrong without mouthfil and with a mask so it's not such an obvious 'no-brainer'...
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[sgnips]

Isnt the mouthfill technique a part of the AA material?

no, it isn't
mouthfill is an argument we only hint to and at the same time something we usually explain because we are often asked about but still it is not part of our official programs

i guess it will hardly be part of our programs as it presents some risks in the end
also, it is something many people can't learn in the short term of a course

really nice discussion here, please keep posting (even if we're 110% off topic...:t:t)

 

[azapa]

In the most recent VB Igor did around 80m if I am not wrong without mouthfil and with a mask so it's not such an obvious 'no-brainer'...
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Igor was using BTV, obtaining air with diaphragmatic contraction past RV, no idea how!

 

[mermaidgirl]

yes, Simon but as you recall he was desperately trying to learn mouthfill and working on it. He was having to turn feet first and do various gyrations to equalize-- we both know how that is :t That is an advantage with FIM -it gives more opportunity for messing around on the rope. I tried to turn up in cnf and then continue down and it didn't work out so well.:head

ps Simos-- he also got a mask squeeze with that mask so....

 

[tcrusson]

Towards the end of a dive on a mouthfill, it feels like most of the air is in the throat and the supply is endless from there. However it can come with a feeling of having one's throat squashed.

How do you train throat flexibility? Is it only through FRC/exhale, or are there techniques that would work on dry land? Also, does anyone know how to train eardrum flexibility in a safe manner?

Cheers,
Tanguy
Blog: Splash

 

[Simos]

yes, Simon but as you recall he was desperately trying to learn mouthfill and working on it. He was having to turn feet first and do various gyrations to equalize-- we both know how that is :t That is an advantage with FIM -it gives more opportunity for messing around on the rope. I tried to turn up in cnf and then continue down and it didn't work out so well.:head

ps Simos-- he also got a mask squeeze with that mask so....

Yes I read he had some trouble with the mask etc Mermaidgirl (was it a sphera out of curiosity?) I only mentioned the mask because of the comparison with Morten's dive (just to say that it was like for like as using the mask is more difficult). Morten says the last mask EQ was at 25m and he made it to 74m with the sphera (not sure if he got squeezed).

I agree completely that FIM makes it easier to mess about with the position on the rope and try to get air to the right places but for an 80m dive using BTV you still have to somehow be able to bring the air up in the first place well beyond RV..
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[Simos]

Igor was using BTV, obtaining air with diaphragmatic contraction past RV, no idea how!

Just BTV? Wow! I like BTV but it seems really hard to use it deeper (unless you combined with some frenzel like action). I assumed he was flexible enough to be able to bring air up well past RV and the using his tongue/cheeks to pressurise..

Maybe he was topping up the mask on the way down and then used the mask air to EQ - the maskfil lol (only joking)

Azapa by BTV do you mean that he simply wasn't pinching his nose (in which case he could still be using some technique to pressurize the e-tubes) or do you mean he was JUST using BTV (ie unpressurized - which for me fails at a really shallow depth but maybe the way he does the diafragmatic contractions creates enough pressure for it to work?)
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[azapa]

Simos, no idea what he was doing down there, but he uses a sphera and maybe creating some pressure against it.

He did show me, in detail, exactly the part he moves to equalize, [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levator_veli_palatini]Levator veli palatini - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame] . To equalize he draws up and curves this area, opening the etubes. Lucky bu..er.

 

[Simos]

Sounds like standard BTV azapa? Opening the e-tubes is the easy part, the question is how to get air in the e-tubes so deep... Maybe reverse packing...
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[cdavis]

Some odd stuff goes on with equalization and we don't really understand what. It is possible to equalize with standard BTV well below what should be RV. Last October, I did a 33 m dive, FRC at about 55 percent of a lungful. The same dive was standard BTV and only that (no frenzel) down to 28 meters. That certainly should be below my RV, especially given the relatively stiff mask I was using.

I think what was going on for me was increasing ability to blood shift (I'd been doing a lot of diving), effectively reducing RV.

Connor

 

[ginooo]

Because none of the gurus use the technique Musimu (The Air Cavity Flooding): what are the problems? Theoretically it would seem the best.

 

[watts]

Infection. Pain and vertigo .but havnt tryed it deep.
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[trullalla]

guess it will hardly be part of our programs as it presents some risks in the end

which risks?

also, it is something many people can't learn in the short term of a course

i disagree. i have taught probably 100+ people how to do a mouthfill in 3 days. very easy to include it in a course.

linda

 

[ROBERT REYES]

Very interesting.

 

[efattah]

If understand the physics of air pressure, it is clear that BTV will work way beyond residual volume. Since all you do is allow the eustachian tubes to equalize to the same pressure as in your sinuses, then it is the pressure in the sinuses that are the main variable. As long as lung volume remains high enough that the epiglottis is open, the BTV will continue to work. Once the lungs are crushed to the point that the throat collapses, you can still do BTV and reach the same pressure as the sinuses, except that slowly the sinuses will fall below ambient and start to get squeezed. At that point BTV would produce a degree of equalization, but not a full equalization - perhaps enough to alleviate ear pain but not a full equalization.

Musimu himself could not use sinus flooding for constant weight. He tried it on his 87m record dives and got too dizzy, so instead he used the mouth fill. However for feet down wet equalizing seems useful.