very deep dives without mouthfil?

[Giobbi]

God damn this thread is good! Many thanks for sharing all.

 

[Arjen]

well, actually (fortunately?) we don't have students aiming for 60... so no real need to teach the mouthfill

I find this reasoning of not learning students the mouth fill technique very strange.

We know the mouth fill technique works.
We know the mouth fill technique, if learned properly, reduces the risk of lung squeeze, because we do not have to pump air up at great depths to equalize.
We know quite a number of advanced freedivers want to extend their limits in depth.
We know the best environment to learn new techniques are during instruction by a competent instructor, who can correct mistakes and dangerous methods and also warn about the dangers and how to proceed as safely as possible.

But because we only dive to 30 meters during our courses and it is not our aim that people are going to 60 meters, we don’t teach it. Well, what about the aim of your students? Maybe they want to be able to progress to 80 meters? So why not teach it in the best possible way instead of letting people find out for themselves with all the possible risks without the benefits of a good teacher?

 

[Simos]

Arjen you can't teach beginners all the techniques needed to get to 100m! All in good time...

Apart from the fact that it would be irrelevant to most beginners and not the most appropiate technique for the depths they are interested in, in my opinion someone who is a relative beginner or even intermediate has most important things to be taught than the moutfil.

I don't think sgnips' comment meant that you would never teach the mouthfil - I'll let him reply but the way I understood it is that his students don't currently dive to depths that would require the moutfil.

I don't think that teaching appriate techniques to appropriate levels is irrational. It's the same with packing and other techniques...
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[Arjen]

Arjen you can't teach beginners all the techniques needed to get to 100m! All in good time...

Where exactly did I say that the mouth fill technique should be taught in a beginner course?

We know quite a number of advanced freedivers want to extend their limits in depth.

I highlighted the part of my post I think is relevant to your reply.

 

[sgnips]

I don't think sgnips' comment meant that you would never teach the mouthfil - I'll let him reply but the way I understood it is that his students don't currently dive to depths that would require the moutfil.

I don't think that teaching appriate techniques to appropriate levels is irrational. It's the same with packing and other techniques...

hi Simos,
you got the message
the first reason why we don't teach is that our students don't actually need such an advacnced technique
at the same time, Arjen, if a student of mine, after ending his course, aiming for bigger dephts, would ask me about learning the mouthfill, i might consider it and teach it as far as i can

the second reason why we don't teach it is that we don't want to give a potentially (i said potentially) risky (i said potentially, remember?) instrument
what if i teach it to a bunch of guys, they apply the technique, go out in the water without me and something wrong happens because they, say, dive to a depht they can't manage?
this is not what AA has been created for and this is my answer to Linda: not only you have to give a student the instruments, but also and more importantly, you have to teach how to use them
this second part is what might take your 4th day teaching

AA's two cents

about squeezing due to air swallowing: i take your point Dave, Eric, etc: i got squeezed once for (i suppose) this exact reason
i suppose so because when i lost my mouthfill i didn't push harder to fill it up again but stopped and went back to surface
i remember i felt a pretty huge hit in my lungs and on the surface i was spitting red
talking to many people here came to the conclusion above but we might be wrong, any idea of what else could have been?
not simple squeezing for depht because i was practicing full lungs in the 30m range, which i am very trained to

 

[Arjen]

the second reason why we don't teach it is that we don't want to give a potentially (i said potentially) risky (i said potentially, remember?) instrument
what if i teach it to a bunch of guys, they apply the technique, go out in the water without me and something wrong happens because they, say, dive to a depht they can't manage?
this is not what AA has been created for and this is my answer to Linda: not only you have to give a student the instruments, but also and more importantly, you have to teach how to use them
this second part is what might take your 4th day teaching

So instead of teaching someone a technique in controlled circumstances and with all the benefits of an instructor who can explain the risks involved and makes sure you learn the technique correctly, you let the students figure it out from internet resources by themselves.

And this is safer how?

And people are also always responsible for themselves to some extent. (Although I know quite a few people who should not be responsible for anything including themselves, but this is another thing altogether.) They will push no matter what you teach and whether you teach the mouth fill technique or not, it will not make a difference either way.

 

[Vedrana]

This is a great thread!!!

I think that much can be learned from this

 

[Simos]

Where exactly did I say that the mouth fill technique should be taught in a beginner course?

I highlighted the part of my post I think is relevant to your reply.

Hi Arjen - I just used the beginners analogy to make the point that it really depends what a course or even organisation is set out to achieve. I don't find it irrational to only teach advanced techniques only to those wanting to progress to that level - not everyone does!

At the same time I think it's worth making students aware of the existence of different techniques even if they are outside the scope of the course. Those interested can seek further more specialised tuition (makes sense to me) or take the risk of trying to learn themselves.

For me it's a question (not of risk) but of whether it's the best use of time in the course in question to be teaching it, given what the course is designed for (eg 30m).

I don't agree that not teaching it puts people in risk. As long as people are briefed not to try it themselves I think it's fine for a course to 'leave it at that'.

Take cave diving or wreck diving in scuba as an analogy. No doubt many scuba divers might want to do that at some point but it doesn't mean that not teaching it in the normal scuba courses is endangering people because they might find about it on the internet etc. Or perhaps diving on air vs trimix is a better analogy? The key is for people to clearly understand in a course on what they have been and what they haven't been trained to do.

Also, to avoid frustration or disappointment, it's also perhaps a good idea for courses to be clear on what the student can expect to learn before enrolling - I don't know anything about AA courses but the AIDA ones I did so far were pretty clear.
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[Arjen]

Hi Arjen - I just used the beginners analogy to make the point that it really depends what a course or even organisation is set out to achieve. I don't find it irrational to only teach advanced techniques only to those wanting to progress to that level - not everyone does!

That is a fair point, but you did it in such a way that you misrepresented my viewpoints and made it look that I was in favour of teaching advanced techniques to beginning and/or inexperienced freedivers. And I do have a very big issue with that. This type of framing of discussions is something that happens in a very nasty way in Dutch politics at the moment and I’m quite frankly totally disgusted by this way of misrepresenting facts and opinions. Please do not do that.

At the same time I think it's worth making students aware of the existence of different techniques even if they are outside the scope of the course. Those interested can seek further more specialised tuition (makes sense to me) or take the risk of trying to learn themselves.

For me it's a question (not of risk) but of whether it's the best use of time in the course in question to be teaching it, given what the course is designed for (eg 30m).

Also, that is nothing I have an issue with. The point is that sgnips said:

Isnt the mouthfill technique a part of the AA material?

no, it isn't
mouthfill is an argument we only hint to and at the same time something we usually explain because we are often asked about but still it is not part of our official programs

i guess it will hardly be part of our programs as it presents some risks in the end
also, it is something many people can't learn in the short term of a course

really nice discussion here, please keep posting (even if we're 110% off topic...)

and

well, actually (fortunately?) we don't have students aiming for 60... so no real need to teach the mouthfill

I think this reasoning is flawed and in my posts in this thread I try to address these specific points. And by the looks of it I’m in pretty impressive company.

 

[fnacinovich]

So instead of teaching someone a technique in controlled circumstances and with all the benefits of an instructor who can explain the risks involved and makes sure you learn the technique correctly, you let the students figure it out from internet resources by themselves.

And this is safer how?

Arjen, as I already explained earlier in this thread, AA courses are limited to 30m depth and are not aimed at coaching advanced freedivers. Thus, mouthfill does not fit inside an AA course (standard courses, not stages). During a course it is mentioned and even explained, but not teached because it is not part of the standard program.

Not to mention the fact that, despite Trullallas statings, I personally think that mouthfill would deserve quite a lot of time be properly learned. Considering the fact that AA courses already lasts 3 months, with a minimum required number of pool, theory, relaxation/breathing, static and deep sessions which is pretty impressive, this is simply not feasible.

Sorry but I found rather illogical your arguing about the risk of having students learning the technique from the internet. Following this reasoning we should teach them each and every freediving technique to avoid such risks.

Best regards

Francesco

 

[x_yeti]

I'm not sure why some of you are so insistent that learning the mouthfill in an AIDA 4 star course, which is an advanced course, in 3 days is not possible or not ideal. The logic that it will somehow push you beyond your capabilities is also flawed. It's like saying you shouldn't teach Valsalva or Frenzel to a beginner because they are suddenly going to go from 0m to 20-30m in a few days and possibly hurt themselves.

I learnt the mouthfill on one of Linda's courses, in 3 days, and I made a lot of progress as a result. I didn't kill myself or squeeze myself, because thankfully I have more than 2 neurons even though they don't fire at the same time sometimes. And as Eric implied, I did not master the the mouthfill on that course. In fact I almost relearnt the mouthfill in a training session with Linda more than a year later and to this day I'm still learning on my own.

 

[Arjen]

Not to mention the fact that, despite Trullallas statings, I personally think that mouthfill would deserve quite a lot of time be properly learned.

So in one corner we have an instructor who says she can teach it in three days and does so on a regular basis with very good results. And in the other corner we have an instructor who says he thinks it is not possible.

Sorry but I found rather illogical your arguing about the risk of having students learning the technique from the internet. Following this reasoning we should teach them each and every freediving technique to avoid such risks.

But here we have an advanced technique which is both safe if learned properly and is very effective. So why not teach it to experienced freedivers in a course? Everyfreediver who hears about it will try it out sooner or later. You can pretend that the freedivers you teach are not going to try it out because they don't need it, but my opinion is that you need quite a bit of wishfull thinking to maintain that position.

Trullalla could even teach me how to do a mouth fill in three days and I must be one of the most useless freedivers she has ever tought. She never said everybody will do a perfect mouth fill after three days but you will have the basics down so you can progress at your own leisure.

 

[DivingDane]

Glad to read your still diving Seb! Some of us thought we'd lost one of the greats! I hope your still enjoying it and perfecting some of your techniques. I think your life story of diving and learning would be a very interesting read for all of us.

From everyone in Australia we're glad your still diving. And a couple of us are still diving lake Eachum on a regular bases

DD
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[trullalla]

just a quick note.
even though i do teach mouthfill in the aida4 and SSI 3 (because it's in the courses outline), i'm not saying that other organizations should teach mouthfill.
in fact there are a lot of 4star (or ssi3) students who shouldn't be in that course in the first place because they are not ready to go deep because of lack of mental preparation or technique or both.
usually i recommend these people to wait, go train and come back when they are supercomfortable 30/40 m freedivers and they are only stuck because of equalization.

however, when i was talking about my mouthfill courses i referred to teaching the mouthfill to freedivers not within a "certified" course but as a FDD speciality that we offer just because we have the experience and knowledge to pass the info on.
so, i'm actually against the idea that every instructor should know and teach mouthfill, since most instructors cannot do a decent mouthfill and they are therefore unable to teach it.

linda

 

[x_yeti]

in fact there are a lot of 4star (or ssi3) students who shouldn't be in that course in the first place because they are not ready to go deep because of lack of mental preparation or technique or both.

This reflects badly on the organisations and instructors who have passed these students through to a level where they are not competent enough to handle the advanced course curriculum. The fault lies with the educators and not the material. Tsk tsk AIDA... tsk tsk SSI... :naughty

 

[sebastien murat]

Here's another one on squeezes and combination empties and packs:

Dropped down to +100m on several consecutive dives (on passive exhales weight-assisted) .... no squeezes, never any problems
Followed on by 1 x similar depth on supraVC .... somewhat painful + blood-spit

Conclusion: extreme stretching of pulmonary capillary membrane one way (through blood-shift), then the other way, by hyperinflation of membrane probably not recommended

 

[sgnips]

So in one corner we have an instructor who says she can teach it in three days and does so on a regular basis with very good results. And in the other corner we have an instructor who says he thinks it is not possible.

Arjen, please, read back carefully: you have an instructor saying she can teach the basics of MF i 3 days, the inventor of MF saying this might not work eavery time and another one stating MF is not something you can cover in full in a short course

we have an advanced technique which is both safe if learned properly

aaaah!!! here we are: "IF LEARNED PROPERLY"
have you learnt it properly?
can you say "i master the MF"?

so, i'm actually against the idea that every instructor should know and teach mouthfill, since most instructors cannot do a decent mouthfill and they are therefore unable to teach it.

holy words that make the pair with Arjen's "If learned properly", thanks Linda

now i don't think we have much left to say about the reason why MF shouldn't be taught in standard courses

PLEASE NOTE that if a good instructor masters the MF and wants to teach it (Eric surely would, in Italy we have Federico Mana AA instructor who studied it for long time and is actually teaching it, and so on) i absolutely have nothing against it
i don't know how much Linda can master the MF as i'm not honored to know her in person but if she is good at it, i hope she will have lot of students and i hope she can teach it the best way possible (and she surely would)

 

[4444]

Interesting thread, thank you.
A few questions on squeeze.

Dropped down to +100m on several consecutive dives (on passive exhales weight-assisted) .... no squeezes, never any problems
Followed on by 1 x similar depth on supraVC .... somewhat painful + blood-spit

Conclusion: extreme stretching of pulmonary capillary membrane one way (through blood-shift), then the other way, by hyperinflation of membrane probably not recommended

I get squeezed often but I'm never exactly sure where the blood is coming from (I can only guestimate). I also don't feel any pain when I get squeezed. How do you determine the blood is coming from the alveoli and not from the trachea or bronchi? When it's 'somewhat painful', where do you feel the pain and when? Thanks.

 

[Will]

I get squeezed often but I'm never exactly sure where the blood is coming from (I can only guestimate). I also don't feel any pain when I get squeezed. How do you determine the blood is coming from the alveoli and not from the trachea or bronchi? When it's 'somewhat painful', where do you feel the pain and when? Thanks.

It can be a bit of a whodunnit, but the professional consensus is bronchi for the majority of cases. They are the most rigid of the 'rigid' airways, as their cartilaginous rings form complete circles, and so are most susceptible to negative intrathoracic pressure. Blood is expectorated too soon for it to be alveolar damage, and inhalatory pain after a squeeze is normally felt close to the sternum where the bronchi are. In essence it's just like a sinus squeeze - when the chamber (rigid airway) can't tolerate any greater negative pressure it starts to pull fluids out of its walls: first mucous from the mucosal cells, then blood by rupturing the capillaries.
There seem to be some cases that don't fit this profile, but I think it would describe at least 90%

Hey Seb, where have you been diving these recent years? Thanks again for the tip about Dean's by the way - it turned out to be a hard spot to leave!

 

[trullalla]

Arjen, please, read back carefully: you have an instructor saying she can teach the basics of MF i 3 days, the inventor of MF saying this might not work eavery time and another one stating MF is not something you can cover in full in a short course

yes arjen, stop insisting: obviously i'm dreaming and sgnips is right.

by the way sgnips, do you know how long are fede's courses on equalization and how long does he take to teach the mouthfill?

linda