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I find this reasoning of not learning students the mouth fill technique very strange.well, actually (fortunately?) we don't have students aiming for 60... so no real need to teach the mouthfill
Where exactly did I say that the mouth fill technique should be taught in a beginner course?Arjen you can't teach beginners all the techniques needed to get to 100m! All in good time...
I highlighted the part of my post I think is relevant to your reply.Arjen said:We know quite a number of advanced freedivers want to extend their limits in depth.
hi Simos,I don't think sgnips' comment meant that you would never teach the mouthfil - I'll let him reply but the way I understood it is that his students don't currently dive to depths that would require the moutfil.
I don't think that teaching appriate techniques to appropriate levels is irrational. It's the same with packing and other techniques...
So instead of teaching someone a technique in controlled circumstances and with all the benefits of an instructor who can explain the risks involved and makes sure you learn the technique correctly, you let the students figure it out from internet resources by themselves.the second reason why we don't teach it is that we don't want to give a potentially (i said potentially) risky (i said potentially, remember?) instrument
what if i teach it to a bunch of guys, they apply the technique, go out in the water without me and something wrong happens because they, say, dive to a depht they can't manage?
this is not what AA has been created for and this is my answer to Linda: not only you have to give a student the instruments, but also and more importantly, you have to teach how to use them
this second part is what might take your 4th day teaching
Where exactly did I say that the mouth fill technique should be taught in a beginner course?
I highlighted the part of my post I think is relevant to your reply.
That is a fair point, but you did it in such a way that you misrepresented my viewpoints and made it look that I was in favour of teaching advanced techniques to beginning and/or inexperienced freedivers. And I do have a very big issue with that. This type of framing of discussions is something that happens in a very nasty way in Dutch politics at the moment and I’m quite frankly totally disgusted by this way of misrepresenting facts and opinions. Please do not do that.Hi Arjen - I just used the beginners analogy to make the point that it really depends what a course or even organisation is set out to achieve. I don't find it irrational to only teach advanced techniques only to those wanting to progress to that level - not everyone does!
Also, that is nothing I have an issue with. The point is that sgnips said:At the same time I think it's worth making students aware of the existence of different techniques even if they are outside the scope of the course. Those interested can seek further more specialised tuition (makes sense to me) or take the risk of trying to learn themselves.
For me it's a question (not of risk) but of whether it's the best use of time in the course in question to be teaching it, given what the course is designed for (eg 30m).
andno, it isn'tIsnt the mouthfill technique a part of the AA material?
mouthfill is an argument we only hint to and at the same time something we usually explain because we are often asked about but still it is not part of our official programs
i guess it will hardly be part of our programs as it presents some risks in the end
also, it is something many people can't learn in the short term of a course
really nice discussion here, please keep posting (even if we're 110% off topic...)
I think this reasoning is flawed and in my posts in this thread I try to address these specific points. And by the looks of it I’m in pretty impressive company.well, actually (fortunately?) we don't have students aiming for 60... so no real need to teach the mouthfill
So instead of teaching someone a technique in controlled circumstances and with all the benefits of an instructor who can explain the risks involved and makes sure you learn the technique correctly, you let the students figure it out from internet resources by themselves.
And this is safer how?
So in one corner we have an instructor who says she can teach it in three days and does so on a regular basis with very good results. And in the other corner we have an instructor who says he thinks it is not possible.Not to mention the fact that, despite Trullallas statings, I personally think that mouthfill would deserve quite a lot of time be properly learned.
But here we have an advanced technique which is both safe if learned properly and is very effective. So why not teach it to experienced freedivers in a course? Everyfreediver who hears about it will try it out sooner or later. You can pretend that the freedivers you teach are not going to try it out because they don't need it, but my opinion is that you need quite a bit of wishfull thinking to maintain that position.Sorry but I found rather illogical your arguing about the risk of having students learning the technique from the internet. Following this reasoning we should teach them each and every freediving technique to avoid such risks.
in fact there are a lot of 4star (or ssi3) students who shouldn't be in that course in the first place because they are not ready to go deep because of lack of mental preparation or technique or both.
Arjen, please, read back carefully: you have an instructor saying she can teach the basics of MF i 3 days, the inventor of MF saying this might not work eavery time and another one stating MF is not something you can cover in full in a short courseSo in one corner we have an instructor who says she can teach it in three days and does so on a regular basis with very good results. And in the other corner we have an instructor who says he thinks it is not possible.
aaaah!!! here we are: "IF LEARNED PROPERLY"we have an advanced technique which is both safe if learned properly
holy words that make the pair with Arjen's "If learned properly", thanks LindaTrullalla said:so, i'm actually against the idea that every instructor should know and teach mouthfill, since most instructors cannot do a decent mouthfill and they are therefore unable to teach it.
Dropped down to +100m on several consecutive dives (on passive exhales weight-assisted) .... no squeezes, never any problems
Followed on by 1 x similar depth on supraVC .... somewhat painful + blood-spit
Conclusion: extreme stretching of pulmonary capillary membrane one way (through blood-shift), then the other way, by hyperinflation of membrane probably not recommended
I get squeezed often but I'm never exactly sure where the blood is coming from (I can only guestimate). I also don't feel any pain when I get squeezed. How do you determine the blood is coming from the alveoli and not from the trachea or bronchi? When it's 'somewhat painful', where do you feel the pain and when? Thanks.
Arjen, please, read back carefully: you have an instructor saying she can teach the basics of MF i 3 days, the inventor of MF saying this might not work eavery time and another one stating MF is not something you can cover in full in a short course