Apnea Diet

[shoutatthesky]

Hey Cliff - sounds like fun work. I would suggest bananas above all else. Maybe you could also add in a few sunflower and pumpkin seeds. These are great because you can just eat a small amount at a time. Even better is toast a mixture of the seeds in a heavy fry pan with a bit of soy sauce or tamari to give the mix a bit more flavour. So basically lots of snacks and nothing bigger than a few mouthfulls. Have fun!

 

[alix.leclerc]

Hang on... can you ask him how he manages to volunteer for swimming around in a great big tank with a lot of amazing fish? It's a perfect dive!

I've heard that you should eat carbs the night before so that you don't run out of energy, and don't eat three hours before the dive. Only eat fruit and fast sugars the day of the dive since they are quickly digestable. No alcohol the night before either! (although i've heard a small amount justy before the dive works wonders?)

 

[diveoceanos]

I am writing a course outline for free diving, and during my search for information on nutrition for free divers I came across this thread. I have read a lot of interesting things on the above discussion and frankly some of them created a wow effect as they came in conflict with what I was knowing. As far as I remember myself I was always looking for a proof to buy an information. My background is School of Health Sciences - department of Pharmacy in Patras Greece. I have the sense that a lot of the information in this thread are inexact science or the interpretations some of the pals are offering are at least incomplete.

Just to clear up a few things I would like to invite every1 to read some chapters about the regulation of body fluids pH in a Human Physiology textbook, like the one of A Guyton MD.

The bottom line is that the human body and specifically the chemosensitive area of the breathing control center in the brain develops adapatation to progressively lower pH in a way that the onset of contractions regulated by the breathing control center is delayed in well trained individuals compared with beginners. This phenomenon is well established and known among the free diving community as the development of tolerance to higher CO2 with training. But gee, one may not affect his or her blood pH more effectivelly by eating anything than by regulating it with respiration!

The normal pH of arterial blood is 7,4 and the normal pH for venous blood is 7,35. Even the slightest change in these values may alter the rate of biochemical reactions that occur inside our cells. Therefore the human body possess many effective mechanisms and buffer systems in order to maintain its pH within relatively close limits. Otherwise it would be a disaster.

These mechanisms which I am not intending to elaborate on include buffer systems that are present in all body fluids (bicarbonate system, phosphate system, protein system), control by increasing or decreasing the respiration rate, and finally the most effective system is the renal system that produces either alkaline or acidic urine accordingly to maintain the body pH within the close normal values.

The minimum you can achieve by eating acidic foods and overdo it is to achieve a pathologic state called "metabolic acidosis" where the blood pH goes below 7,35. Whether that contributes to the development of faster adaptation to more acidic blood and thus delay in the initial contactions during apnea remains to be proved. Also whether one may affect its fluid pH by eating lemons before apnea towards a more alkaline one and thus delay the onset of the first contraction is doubtful and remains to be proved by proper research. As far as the supplements are concerned please be aware that the most of the time the so called claimed "miraclelous phenomena" by their marketing campaigns are purely hoax. The theories about the source of human desease are numerous. Some of them are take the cake though like the one of attributing every bad thing to body pH. For your information there are bacteria than can leave in very acidic environment and some that can leave in alcohol or they can develop resistance to human body defenses. Don't tell me than cancer can be cured by controlling ones pH. To make the long story short, IMO nothing can increase your fitness significantly more than a balanced diet, weight control, a healthy lifestyle and a lot of excercise. The rest is philology!

But what is all this discussion about? What creates that much interest in altering ones pH by applying all these tricks, anyway? You probably know that on repetitive exposure to apnea conditions your chemosensitive area of the breathing control center in your brain becomes less sensitive to H3O+. The higher the concentration of H3O+ the less is the pH (which is BTW a negative logarithm of H3O+ ions concentration). During apnea or breath-hold the CO2 concentration increases in the body fluids and then it reacts with water to give H3O+ and HCO3- (bicarbonate). Progressively the body adopts to gradually higher levels of H3O+ and the onset of the first contraction is being delayed making apnea less troublesome. One more thing that you might need to know about pH is that as it drops it might reach the zone of 7.0, under which condition the CNS is supressed so much that the individual looses conciousness. The mechanisms are far much more complicated as I am describing them right here but just to give you an other point of view.

 

[alix.leclerc]

It's always good to get information like this! Have you also looked into the Bohr effect concerning the pH of the blood and oxygen affinity? Go on Wikipedia or there is a little bit about it on this thread http://forums.deeperblue.net/freedi...s/72044-physiological-changes-human-body.html. Basically if the blood is more acidic oxygen binds to haemoglobin with less affinity and so it is more easy to transport around the body, and easily deposited to the muscles that need it. Which is important in breath-holding where the blood becomes slightly more acidic due to the increasing levels of saturated carbon dioxide.

Now I have to go make some tea...

 

[shoutatthesky]

Well this is all very interesting.
@Oceanos - You obviously have a wealth of knowledge in the area of biochemistry and physiology but please remember that science must always be willing to accept it has come to a wrong conclusion and be willing to adjust accordingly. I wonder if you might be the person to take these theories and test them out with some experiments. Then you can say "this is wrong" or "this is right". Thankyou for your imput also to Alix's essay. I learned from what you had to say.

@ the dairy industry - Shame on you!:rcard I hereby declare my permanent withdrawal as a customer.

@ Alix - No milk, two sugars please.

 

[diveoceanos]

Well this is all very interesting.
@Oceanos - You obviously have a wealth of knowledge in the area of biochemistry and physiology but please remember that science must always be willing to accept it has come to a wrong conclusion and be willing to adjust accordingly.

very true.

I wonder if you might be the person to take these theories and test them out with some experiments. Then you can say "this is wrong" or "this is right".

It is not easy to test an hypothesis. I have no access to any research facility.

A lot of people though have personal experience of various experiments that they did. Their observations are very important. They should be feeded to a research facility.

One other point is that research in freediving physiology if it is to be carried out properly it should be done in freedivers volunteers. The body of a freediver depending on how adapted it is, might behave slightly different than the average body of any volunteer.

 

[cigarlung]

DIET changes have a powerful effect if you have reached a plateau in training. Perhaps are nutrician and training are excellent already however we have reached a point in training where we just are not improving and so we find special new foods or supplements that others claim will improve are performance. We beleive this person with this product or special diet has the answer the power of belief has a powerful effect on are increased performance.

 

[efattah]

diveoceanos,

Having done experiments with apnea diet since 1999, I can make some statements based on personal experiments as well as confirmation from many other freedivers.

Modifying diet does little or nothing to change your blood pH, but it can change the amount of buffers in your blood.

The simplest experiment that anyone can do, is to:
1. Try doing a breath-hold and measure the time of the first contraction
2. Mix 15g of baking soda (NaHCO3) into water and drink
3. Wait 45 minutes
4. Try another breath-hold and measure the time of the first contraction

The contraction will be dramatically delayed. You can then do a control experiment:
1. Try doing a breath-hold and measure the time of the first contraction
2. Drink water
3. Wait 45 minutes
4. Try another breath-hold and measure the time of the first contraction

Compare the results. It will be extremely obvious. This is not a method designed just for freediving -- sprinters and middle distance runners have been doing it for years.

 

[GreekDiver]

Im just going to swallow my baking soda toothpaste in the morning before i go diving.

 

[diveoceanos]

diveoceanos,

Having done experiments with apnea diet since 1999, I can make some statements based on personal experiments as well as confirmation from many other freedivers.

Modifying diet does little or nothing to change your blood pH, but it can change the amount of buffers in your blood.

The simplest experiment that anyone can do, is to:
1. Try doing a breath-hold and measure the time of the first contraction
2. Mix 15g of baking soda (NaHCO3) into water and drink
3. Wait 45 minutes
4. Try another breath-hold and measure the time of the first contraction

The contraction will be dramatically delayed. You can then do a control experiment:
1. Try doing a breath-hold and measure the time of the first contraction
2. Drink water
3. Wait 45 minutes
4. Try another breath-hold and measure the time of the first contraction

Compare the results. It will be extremely obvious. This is not a method designed just for freediving -- sprinters and middle distance runners have been doing it for years.

Eric,

That's all very interesting. I am sure you are aware about Hamish's experiment testing this hypothesis using NaHCO3 and NaCl in the control. Recently it has been published in the journal of Hyperbaric Medicine as well 2007 Mar-Apr;34(2):91-7. One thing I would like to have your opinion in, is the following:

The experiement carried out in non-elite breath-hold divers with Breath-hold times around 2:30 on average. They have compared the Maximium breath hold time (max-BHT) and reached statistically significant differences with NaHCO3 which found to increase the max-BHT by around 15% or 22 seconds (P=0.019), over NaCl. I assume that NaHCO3 increases the buffering capabilities of the plasma and thus we have a scavenger effect of the produced CO2, and the drop in pH is delayed, just like you described above.

In the abstract it is not mentioned that they measured the time to first contraction. But I assume that this was also increased in the NaHCO3 group.

In your opinion if the same experiement was carried out in elite breath-hold divers would the results be different? My question is about differentiating the time to first contraction with the max BHT. I am asking that, because as the body develops higher levels of adaptation the max-BHT is more dependent on oxygen levels rather than CO2. On the other hand contractions are increasing the utilisation of oxygen. Any data on the max-BHT in elite BH-divers?

Sotos Christodoulou

 

[diveoceanos]

DIET changes have a powerful effect if you have reached a plateau in training. Perhaps are nutrician and training are excellent already however we have reached a point in training where we just are not improving and so we find special new foods or supplements that others claim will improve are performance. We beleive this person with this product or special diet has the answer the power of belief has a powerful effect on are increased performance.

Cigarlung, what you are describing above is 100% valid and accepted by the researches. It is known as the placebo effect. And that's why in a proper reasearch this effect should be ruled out or eliminated by using a control group that takes an identical pill or solution or whatever, under identical conditions and then the results are compared between the two groups (test and placebo), to check if there is any actual difference. Some times both groups show a change but the change is similar or not statistically different.

 

[sanso]

diveoceanos,

You seem to know a couple of things of medicine and physiology - as is to be expected from someone with a pharmaceutical background.
You seem - however - not to realize that what You know might not be all there is.

Nutrition in Sports is a well developed science, and the physiological effects of nutrition are well described. There is lots of literature on this topic to be found on pubmed.

As You wrote Yourself, You have little experience in freediving, so I'd like to suggest You stick to posting things that You have experienced Yourself or have well-founded knowledge of. You say You have a scientific background, so why don't You use that background to get up to speed in this particular science and then come back with any questions or objections You might (will?) have.

Science is nothing without experience. Please accept the fact that many people here have taken a scientific look at freediving and been freedivers for many, many years and know a couple of things one doesn't learn in pharma-class. This is not to say that whatever You learned at uni is useless or bad, but in this field it is just not the whole truth.

With regards from Germany,

Richard

 

[shoutatthesky]

Jeeeeez !!!!! You guys are being so hard on poor Sotos. He has made some good contributions and he has mostly had negative replies. Is there something about him some of you know that make you react in such a way. This treatment is not usual for new members. Why is it different for him?

 

[diveoceanos]

diveoceanos,

You seem to know a couple of things of medicine and physiology - as is to be expected from someone with a pharmaceutical background.
You seem - however - not to realize that what You know might not be all there is.

Nutrition in Sports is a well developed science, and the physiological effects of nutrition are well described. There is lots of literature on this topic to be found on pubmed.

As You wrote Yourself, You have little experience in freediving, so I'd like to suggest You stick to posting things that You have experienced Yourself or have well-founded knowledge of. You say You have a scientific background, so why don't You use that background to get up to speed in this particular science and then come back with any questions or objections You might (will?) have.

Science is nothing without experience. Please accept the fact that many people here have taken a scientific look at freediving and been freedivers for many, many years and know a couple of things one doesn't learn in pharma-class. This is not to say that whatever You learned at uni is useless or bad, but in this field it is just not the whole truth.

With regards from Germany,

Richard

I am hearing what you are saying. Thank you for your valuable advise and for your nice input

Perhaps you could be a little more specific on the objections you have about my posts. Any recommendations for good reading?

 

[ADR]

Jeeeeez !!!!! You guys are being so hard on poor Sotos. He has made some good contributions and he has mostly had negative replies. Is there something about him some of you know that make you react in such a way. This treatment is not usual for new members. Why is it different for him?

...I have been wondering the same thing. I think it might relate to the notion that most new members show a little more humility which is sort of normal in any community or social group for a new comer in their early days. I'm not sure if the response or perception of lack of humility from Sotos comes from:
- English not being his first language (lost in translation)
- a perceivied arrogance that can come with "formal" knowledge and/or from the scuba world
- relating too much of his scuba knowledge incorrectly to freediving
- assuming that current formal research is where the leading research in this area only exists
- wanting to be perceived as an expert on arrival in DB
- or something else entirely

Those items are not MECE and I probably should have thought about them some more.

Having had the reaction you refer to myself :ko in another thread I'm becoming a little intrigued by the whole thing and questioning my own attitudes etc.

 

[trux]

I just want to add my voice in support of diveoceanos - I value his contributions in this as well in other threads highly. Regardless if I agree or not with the facts he states in this thread, we definitely need this type of discussions where arguments from experts may be exchanged. With all my respect to Sanso, I think he overreacted in this case and owes Sotos an apology.

It would be very sad if experts like Sotos were lynched and hunted off the forum just because they are new and politely disagree with some residents. I am letting aside the other thread http://forums.deeperblue.net/freediving-training-techniques/72990-free-diving-schools.html - I still could understand the overreaction there, but seeing the animosity repeated toward Sotos in this thread too (and without any reason), could create the false impression we are xenophobic here at DB. I am sure that the majority of DB readers appreciates the information exchanged in this thread as much as myself and sees no reason for silencing Sotos.

 

[diveoceanos]

...I have been wondering the same thing. I think it might relate to the notion that most new members show a little more humility which is sort of normal in any community or social group for a new comer in their early days. I'm not sure if the response or perception of lack of humility from Sotos comes from:
- English not being his first language (lost in translation)
- a perceivied arrogance that can come with "formal" knowledge and/or from the scuba world
- relating too much of his scuba knowledge incorrectly to freediving
- assuming that current formal research is where the leading research in this area only exists
- wanting to be perceived as an expert on arrival in DB
- or something else entirely

Those items are not MECE and I probably should have thought about them some more.

Having had the reaction you refer to myself :ko in another thread I'm becoming a little intrigued by the whole thing and questioning my own attitudes etc.

Andy, you are probably right about the perceived lack of humility. But I wonder whether it is just a perception because that does not fit as a feature in my character map. Many of your thoughts might be a part of the answer indeed. I am a newcomer and some people here are well established and highly respected and I dare to speak to them directly maybe in way that has been perceived as by-passing of the hierarchy? Could an other part also be the fact that in most of the cases I wrote something with my really bad English (that could have been wrote much better) and instead of getting any advise on how to express that more accuratley, I reveived an attack just like I was an alien? Me in turn reacted to the attack? Natural human reaction.

I would like to mention that the only English books I read are science books and I am doing this since I was in the university. Not too much information in the Greek bibliography, for many subjects. I admit that I can not express my self in English and I am using babelfish occasionaly for many words that I don't understand.

Of course I am familiar with the ongoing debate between SCUBA and Freediving. But I would also like to mention that I never managed to understand why this can happen and I was never belonging to any of the two "opposed armys". Today a lot of SCUBA divers are also Freedivers and vice versa. Among my best friends are Freedivers and Spearfishers, and we never had any disagreement. As long as there is mutual respect and empathy there will not be any conflict. I never understood the tendency to insist that they are tottaly different instead of trying to find areas of common interests.

SCUBA diving and Freediving are quite different indeed. But is that a reason for not learning one from each other? Some principles are common. Try to see them, and you would probably realize that I am not talking non-sense here.

When I firstly came in this forum my impression was a big WOW. Too much information in here, and too many names. The impression is still there. Simply amazing. Anyone who is actively involved in Freediving, at whatever level, may get a benefit of just reading here, the posts that indeed have many prototype ideas some unique techniques. One may even get ideas on how to proceed with formal research if he belongs in that field as well. This is a community. We are talking about enrichment of views and perceptions. I tried to make a couple of posts and have seen some good reactions and some bad ones. OK I admit, I am not the type of person who walks-in and post in the who am I section and then try to be polite with everyone until he become accepted. It is a matter of character. That is simply not me. On the other I am not sarcastic, I am trying to be polite to anyone. But one part of myself that I hate, the really bad me, is when I engage in reactive behaviour due to my perception that occasioanly some people do not respect and be unfare.

I am not after any recognition for who I am or what I have to share. I would rather be more interested in acquiring information and knowledge from all of you, who are experienced. If you are a little more generous and discuss with me that would be an honour for me. Even if my ideas might be a little bit heretic or seem to be non-sense some discussion would be more than welcome. I am not attacking anyone and I do have some opinions on certain things. I might be wrong and I would appreciate any help to change my wrong views, or to increase my knowledge.

 

[shoutatthesky]

Diveoceanos, I welcome your contribution. We ALL have something to share.

Re: Apnea diet - Do many of you avoid dairy products? If so, why?

 

[fcallagy]

I agree that sotos has been getting a hard time but think sanso was voicing his opinion politely. I think the freediving schools thread rubbed people up the wrong way even if they were just reading the thread but think sotos should be allowed the same rights as everyone else. He broke no forum rules I know of and we usually are a welcoming bunch, maybe we can move on from here in any case.
To try to stay on topic: Adam I dont avoid dairy products and have some butter and milk everyday but I am not a top level athlete if I cant equalise today, I can go back tomorrow. If I am heading away to a course or planning to do some static training i may avoid caffeine and lower my dairy intake from a fear (whether real or not) of an increased mucous build up making equalisation harder to do.

 

[sanso]

Yep, I overreacted.

Sotos, please accept my apology. You did have a bad start here, it seems. It's good You still keep it up and You'll see we're not as bad as it might seem.
I can find some of the items on ADR's list still lingering in my head, but my last post here was somewhat overshot.
Andy, true as well. This encounter with Sotos is a great chance to rethink.

As for the dispute between free- and SCUBA divers, I hardly get the feeling that there's much of a front between the two here on DB. Quite some notable members are active in both and don't get any abuse (for that, that is :t )

And something on topic at last:
I don't avoid dairy products in general - I like cheese and milk far too much for that - but I do avoid them when diving, especially in cold water. In the summer I have no trouble with a bit of milk in my coffee (yes, I need coffee in the morning, even when diving ), but in cold water, dairy products will clog my sinuses and tubes up and I'll be out of the water in no time, not being able to equalize properly.

Sincerely,

Richard