C4 Graphite shooting line not sitting tight around the line release? Help?

[popgun pete]

Are you sure the there is really a problem with the trigger mech.? Because in lots of pictures the line release is always pulled forward by the shooting line's tension.
I attach some pics of other people's C4 Graphite here.
Do you think these guns also have the same problems as I do?

No, you probably have just not paid sufficient attention to the instructions. Go back and read this entire thread from the very beginning and be methodical about your approach. Right now with comments flying in from all directions it is like bees in a bottle and you will be getting nowhere. Carbon C4, despite some customer service and communications failings, are not fools who produce and sell guns that will not work.

 

[Savagedragon]

No, you probably have just not paid sufficient attention to the instructions. Go back and read this entire thread from the very beginning and be methodical about your approach. Right now with comments flying in from all directions it is like bees in a bottle and you will be getting nowhere. Carbon C4, despite some customer service and communications failings, are not fools who produce and sell guns that will not work.

Okay I was talking to Bill who thinks there's a problem with the trigger mechanism.
He was referring to this picture, where the shaft is pushed out of the mech's center, now it sits slightly to the right, whenever the shooting line puts tension on the line release.
That's what he said and I wanted to be sure. I am gathering opinions right now.
Bill suggests I ask the store to fix this problem and if it's not possible, ask for a refund. This seems like a serious issue and that's why I wanted to be sure.
This is my approach.

 

[Bill McIntyre]

Are you sure the there is really a problem with the trigger mech.? Because in lots of pictures the line release is always pulled forward by the shooting line's tension.
I attach some pics of other people's C4 Graphite here.
Do you think these guns also have the same problems as I do?

If they have the same problems, maybe all C4 guns are junk. I've never laid eyes on one, and have never heard of anyone in California using one. Maybe there is a reason. The important thing is does it work for you. Apparently it doesn't. Get something that works out of the box and/or has been assembled correctly.

I'm 80 and have been spearfishing at least 67 years, but Pete has the advantage on me since seems to have used and X-rayed every gun known to man. All I can talk about it the guns I've owned, and until recently they were American mid handles guns. In the last 25 years I think I've owned at least 10 different Wong guns and only one had a line release that didn't seem to have enough curve and backward bend. It seemed to work, but I was uncomfortable with it so Daryl sent me a replacement line release. The first photo shows a Wong line release.

Then more recently I've owned my first European guns other than a Champion arbalete in the early 1950s. I'm afraid I don't remember a thing about the Champion line release. I have two Abellan and they both have line releases that work. Second photo. I was pleasantly surprised since I keep reading on Spearboard about trouble with reverse mechanisms that some on some Euro guns. People see to always be changing them to some other mechanism. The mechs on the Abellan seem fine to me.

And then most recently I got a Ulusub. Third photo. It has the least curved line release of any of my guns, but it doesn't actually slope toward the muzzle like the one in your C4, and it seems work too.

When you buy a new gun, you shouldn't have to take it apart and fix it or modify it.

Don't let the bungee cord confuse you. That's there because I used breakaway float lines.

 

[Savagedragon]

If they have the same problems, maybe all C4 guns are junk. I've never laid eyes on one, and have never heard of anyone in California using one. Maybe there is a reason. The important thing is does it work for you. Apparently it doesn't. Get something that works out of the box and/or has been assembled correctly.

I'm 80 and have been spearfishing at least 67 years, but Pete has the advantage on me since seems to have used and X-rayed every gun known to man. All I can talk about it the guns I've owned, and until recently they were American mid handles guns. In the last 25 years I think I've owned at least 10 different Wong guns and only one had a line release that didn't seem to have enough curve and backward bend. It seemed to work, but I was uncomfortable with it so Daryl sent me a replacement line release. The first photo shows a Wong line release.

Then more recently I've owned my first European guns other than a champion arbalete in the early 1950s. I'm afraid I don't remember a thing about the Champion line release. I have two Abellan and they both have line releases that work. Second photo. I was pleasantly surprised since I keep reading on Spearboard about trouble with reverse mechanisms that some on some Euro guns. People see to always be changing them to some other mechanism. The mechs on the Abellan seem fine to me.

And then most recently I got a Ulusub. Third photo. It has the least curve of any of my guns, but it doesn't actually slope toward the muzzle like the one in your C4, and it seems work too.

When you buy a new gun, you shouldn't have to take it apart and fix it or modify it.

Okay so I talked to the store owner and he suggested me to take an Allen key and loosen it a bit, then move the line release arm slightly to the left, as you can see here there's a wee bit of the line release jutting over on the right. So perhaps that might fix tie misaligned shaft and the shooting line problem. I will try it tomorrow and we'll see what happens.

 

[Bill McIntyre]

Great! I hope that fixes it.

 

[Savagedragon]

If they have the same problems, maybe all C4 guns are junk. I've never laid eyes on one, and have never heard of anyone in California using one. Maybe there is a reason. The important thing is does it work for you. Apparently it doesn't. Get something that works out of the box and/or has been assembled correctly.

I'm 80 and have been spearfishing at least 67 years, but Pete has the advantage on me since seems to have used and X-rayed every gun known to man. All I can talk about it the guns I've owned, and until recently they were American mid handles guns. In the last 25 years I think I've owned at least 10 different Wong guns and only one had a line release that didn't seem to have enough curve and backward bend. It seemed to work, but I was uncomfortable with it so Daryl sent me a replacement line release. The first photo shows a Wong line release.

Then more recently I've owned my first European guns other than a Champion arbalete in the early 1950s. I'm afraid I don't remember a thing about the Champion line release. I have two Abellan and they both have line releases that work. Second photo. I was pleasantly surprised since I keep reading on Spearboard about trouble with reverse mechanisms that some on some Euro guns. People see to always be changing them to some other mechanism. The mechs on the Abellan seem fine to me.

And then most recently I got a Ulusub. Third photo. It has the least curved line release of any of my guns, but it doesn't actually slope toward the muzzle like the one in your C4, and it seems work too.

When you buy a new gun, you shouldn't have to take it apart and fix it or modify it.

Don't let the bungee cord confuse you. That's there because I used breakaway float lines.

Great insight Bill
However, the reason why nobody in Cali uses a C4 speargun is probably the same reason why nobody in the Med uses American guns. Different philosophies, different cultures, different environments, trust issues, etc.
I might be wrong, but I have never seen an Italian or a Greek spearo with an American speargun in the Med.

But yes, this line release on this C4 is very strange indeed. I would have liked something with more curves.

 

[popgun pete]

I have analysed and designed many spearguns and some of my designs have been used in production guns where I formulated the necessary fixes, that is my job. The problem with C4 is they don't update their info for gun changes as often as they should and expect their users to be experienced, which many are not. Often gun problems are down to gun owners failing to read the instructions, or in this case there may not be any instructions. For spearguns that cost around a grand each they have certainly done their homework, but you need to do yours. I don’t own a C4, but have certainly checked them out when they first appeared with a rear handle covered in rocky looking lumps for increased grip. The C4 guns have evolved over time, but have never gone for the easy solutions because they want their guns to be very different and being different can have its drawbacks if you don’t pay close attention to the gun set up.

 

[Savagedragon]

I have analysed and designed many spearguns and some of my designs have been used in production guns where I formulated the necessary fixes, that is my job. The problem with C4 is they don't update their info for gun changes as often as they should and expect their users to be experienced, which many are not. Often gun problems are down to gun owners failing to read the instructions, or in this case there may not be any instructions. For spearguns that cost around a grand each they have certainly done their homework, but you need to do yours. I don’t own a C4, but have certainly checked them out when they first appeared with a rear handle covered in rocky looking lumps for increased grip. The C4 guns have evolved over time, but have never gone for the easy solutions because they want their guns to be very different and being different can have its drawbacks if you don’t pay close attention to the gun set up.

I understand that. I am paying attention to the gun. And you are right there wasn't any instruction manual at all for this gun.
As you said, C4 knows what they are doing, and they have their own designs. They don't make a gun for around a grand just for jokes. Yet with this shooting line wrap around the trigger mech issue, it can be solved by putting the shooting line above the body parallel with the shaft. However, if that's the design here, why on earth would they put a line guide underneath the gun at all?! Clearly when using the line guide the line release seems too short.

 

[Bill McIntyre]

I don't think I've ever bought a gun that came with instructions. No assembly or batteries required. Stick the shaft in the mechanism until you hear a click. Wrap the shooting line around something up front that should be obvious, back around the line release, around something in front again, and then back to a reel or float line. If it's the first gun you've ever had, you might need some advice on how to wrap the line, which band to load first, etc. But after that, if you've seen one you've seen them all.

Oops, I've leaving out roller guns. Some of those do seem to require an advanced degree but that's why I don't have one. I'm not smart enough.

 

[popgun pete]

That lower guide is for one strand under the gun, not all of them, you can see that in the photo of the gun fully wrapped and running to the reel.

I have lots of guns and although some were only used to try them out I have shot a lot more guns than Bill has and repaired many for those who were careless or stupid as they over-estimated their gun's capacity to endure with next to zero maintenance.

 

[Bill McIntyre]

I was pondering your statement about divers in the Med not using American guns and vice versa. I've sure the first part is true, but Euro guns have been catching on here in the last few years. Here is a shop near me that sells Picasso, Pathos, Bluetec, Teak Sea, Salvimar, and (lo and behold) C4. The Pathos are the ones I've seen most often on my boat. They look like nice guns.

Spearfishing - Spearguns & Polespears

www.spearamerica.com

 

[Savagedragon]

I was pondering your statement about divers in the Med not using American guns and vice versa. I've sure the first part is true, but Euro guns have been catching on here in the last few years. Here is a shop near me that sells Picasso, Pathos, Bluetec, Teak Sea, Salvimar, and (lo and behold) C4. The Pathos are the ones I've seen most often on my boat. They look like nice guns.

Spearfishing - Spearguns & Polespears

www.spearamerica.com

That's because Euro style guns are very beginner friendly, in fact they are the kind of style I'd advise a beginner to use.
American guns are too heavy to use by a first timer, in my opinion.
An aluminum tube 90 cm salvimar, cressi and whatnot, with a 6.5mm shaft is perfect to learn your ways, plus they are very cheap too, only 70-90 bucks at most.
American wooden guns are way too unwieldy and expensive for a beginner.

 

[Bill McIntyre]

I agree. Euro guns are great for beginners and we have a local club with a lot of young beginners here.

But the other reason that shop has so many Euro guns is that the owners name is Petros and he has a Greek accent.

 

[Bill McIntyre]

I can't mention Petros without showing a photo of him. He shot this yellowtail on my boat and a shark apparently took a bite out of it. I made him pose as if he were eating it.

 

[Savagedragon]

That lower guide is for one strand under the gun, not all of them, you can see that in the photo of the gun fully wrapped and running to the reel.

I have lots of guns and although some were only used to try them out I have shot a lot more guns than Bill has and repaired many for those who were careless or stupid as they over-estimated their gun's capacity to endure with next to zero maintenance.

So from what you've seen in the pictures, you don't think there is anything wrong with my speargun at all and I can rest assured?

 

[Savagedragon]

I can't mention Petros without showing a photo of him. He shot this yellowtail on my boat and a shark apparently took a bite out of it. I made him pose as if he were eating it.

That is a nice amberjack indeed! Is Petros an expert on C4 related stuff?

 

[Bill McIntyre]

It’s a yellowtail. They look like amberjack only slimmer. We have amberjack down in Mexico but they don’t come this far North. Petros seems to be pretty knowledgeable in general but I don’t know about C4 in particular.

 

[popgun pete]

So from what you've seen in the pictures, you don't think there is anything wrong with my speargun at all and I can rest assured?

I don’t think that there is anything wrong with it, but you have to wrap it correctly. Some guys make similar mistakes and can get away with it if their gun body does not push the shooting line too much off alignment depending on where the line release position is on that particular gun and they have the line pulled tight. For example on a "Mr Dark" the gun bulges further back and the line may not be possible to run incorrectly, so you have no choice but to wrap the right way. The “Mr Dark” is a very interesting design, but maybe not so practical for stowing as it has the shape of a mandolin and would not want to be thrown in a barrel with a bunch of other guns on a dive boat.

I think "Mr Duck" or "Mr Drake" would have been a more suitable name given the shape, "Mr Turkey" or "Mr Goose" not having quite the right connotations!

 

[Bill McIntyre]

Come to think of it, Petros has. PhD in chemical engineering so he’s smarter than the average dive shop owner.

 

[popgun pete]

One thing that needs to be remembered is that the C4 trigger mechanism does not “dry fire”. When you pull the trigger the sear lever does not fall as biasing springs (torsion type) hold it up. The spear has to be pulled out by the bands to push the sear tooth, actually a short cylinder, downwards. When the sear lever swings down the line release lever is then free to swivel and let the shooting line go. Alternatively you can yank the spear out by hand as the sear tooth needs a load on it to release the spear tail.

This photo indicates that the parts are titanium, but in newer guns I think that they are stainless steel. The springs will be stainless steel as I don't see them being titanium even in the beginning. When in pieces you can see how the mechanism operates with a rocking cradle pivoting on an arm built up out of four laminated together plates.

My guess is the line release lever leans against the top rear of the rocking cradle with the gun cocked to shoot. Pulling the trigger allows the sear lever and cradle to be forced downwards and then the line release lever can swing free thus letting the shooting line wraps go. The purpose of the rocking cradle is to allow the sear tooth cylinder to swing rearwards and the spear tail to pass over the top of it when inserting the shaft in the gun, after which the tooth moves back up to catch in the spear tail notch which is a rounded cut-out in the shaft.