C4 Graphite shooting line not sitting tight around the line release? Help?

[landshark sa]

Okay so I just found this video of a Spanish (?) guy talking about 2 models of C4 Graphite with 2 different line releases. From 1:45 to 2:10. The first model has a line release like mine and the second model has a forward line release.
Anyone able to understand Spanish can help me understand what he's saying about those models?

Although it's in some cases still difficult to follow the narrative, YouTube does offer on the fly translation in videos. On the bottom right if you select the subtitles icon then click etting icon there is an option to translate from Spanish to another language.

What I got out of it is that he's pretty critical of the trigger mech / line release on the C4 Guns he talks about.

 

[popgun pete]

Although it's in some cases still difficult to follow the narrative, YouTube does offer on the fly translation in videos. On the bottom right if you select the subtitles icon then click etting icon there is an option to translate from Spanish to another language.

View attachment 54158

What I got out of it is that he's pretty critical of the trigger mech / line release on the C4 Guns he talks about.

In what way? Trash does not tell us much, I remember a guy saying a gun was shit (not a C4), but when asked for clarification he said he did not like it, which does not mean that everyone would share his opinion.

 

[landshark sa]

Again, a bit difficult to get exactly what he says from the translation but he mentions that from price vs value perspective he expects a better mechanism (he calls it trash) especially since C4 has been so innovative in terms of materials.

Later he mentions on the other gun that the line release which is configured differently to the Graphite sometimes opens and sometimes doesn't open.

 

[popgun pete]

Again, a bit difficult to get exactly what he says from the translation but he mentions that from price vs value perspective he expects a better mechanism (he calls it trash) especially since C4 has been so innovative in terms of materials.

Later he mentions on the other gun that the line release which is configured differently to the Graphite sometimes opens and sometimes doesn't open.

He seems to be a fan of Cressi, so maybe not an entirely unbiased opinion. Looks like an old Nemrod pneumatic leaning against the back wall.

 

[Kodama]

When looking at this picture previously posted we can clearly see a difference between the position of the line release.

In the above picture it leans much further to the back and it seems that shooting line would be held in place properly. One would dare to think this is how it should be...

On the picture illustrating our problem case the position of the line release is completely different.
It is angled much more forward. I can’t help thinking this is just not right.

To me the difference is crystal clear.
If the position in pic 2 is the correct one then why is the slot in which the line release moves too large? It is positioned half way!

Also regarding the line wrapping I would love to follow Pete’s reasoning but it really feels to complicated to me. Why would anyone need a diagram to figure out how the shooting line should be wrapped? Crossing over each other where only one strand can be hooked behind the line guide?

It would be great if someone from C4 could join the conversation and give us some insight in how things are intended exactly in this situation with this model of gun.

 

[Savagedragon]

When looking at this picture previously posted we can clearly see a difference between the position of the line release.

In the above picture it leans much further to the back and it seems that shooting line would be held in place properly. One would dare to think this is how it should be...

On the picture illustrating our problem case the position of the line release is completely different.
It is angled much more forward. I can’t help thinking this is just not right.

To me the difference is crystal clear.
If the position in pic 2 is the correct one then why is the slot in which the line release moves too large? It is positioned half way!

Also regarding the line wrapping I would love to follow Pete’s reasoning but it really feels to complicated to me. Why would anyone need a diagram to figure out how the shooting line should be wrapped? Crossing over each other where only one strand can be hooked behind the line guide?

It would be great if someone from C4 could join the conversation and give us some insight in how things are intended exactly in this situation with this model of gun.

That picture above shows the trigger mechanism at rest, though.
Mine is pulled forward like that because the shooting line is pulling it forward, which also shoves the shaft forward as well.
Is there anyone from C4 on this forum?

 

[Savagedragon]

A

In what way? Trash does not tell us much, I remember a guy saying a gun was shit (not a C4), but when asked for clarification he said he did not like it, which does not mean that everyone would share his opinion.

When looking at this picture previously posted we can clearly see a difference between the position of the line release.

In the above picture it leans much further to the back and it seems that shooting line would be held in place properly. One would dare to think this is how it should be...

On the picture illustrating our problem case the position of the line release is completely different.
It is angled much more forward. I can’t help thinking this is just not right.

To me the difference is crystal clear.
If the position in pic 2 is the correct one then why is the slot in which the line release moves too large? It is positioned half way!

Also regarding the line wrapping I would love to follow Pete’s reasoning but it really feels to complicated to me. Why would anyone need a diagram to figure out how the shooting line should be wrapped? Crossing over each other where only one strand can be hooked behind the line guide?

It would be great if someone from C4 could join the conversation and give us some insight in how things are intended exactly in this situation with this model of gun.

A strange thing just happened. Somehow I managed to put the shooting line into a better position. No idea how, though. I just popped open the string and re-wrap it around the line release arm.
If you take a look at the pics you can see in the 1st pic the line release arm is pushed way too much forward and the shooting line is too close to the edge.
In the 2nd pic you can see that the line release arm is more backward and the shooting line is right in the middle. This is MUCH BETTER.
Keep in mind both pics I used the same wrapping method, nothing changed at all!, I just popped it open and re-wrapped it around the line release, and somehow the result is different. However, now I cannot replicate the same result anymore and the shooting line is back to its 'close to the edge' position again.

Anyone has any idea?

 

[Bill McIntyre]

That’s weird. I’m guessing that the other end is supposed to be stopping on something but it’s a bit short or out of adjustment and missing some times and coming on on something else. But of course that’s just a guess without actually seeing it.

 

[Savagedragon]

That’s weird. I’m guessing that the other end is supposed to be stopping on something but it’s a bit short or out of adjustment and missing some times and coming on on something else. But of course that’s just a guess without actually seeing it.

I JUST FIGURED IT OUT!!
Excited but not really lol
So... if I manually PUSH the shaft all the way to the right BEFORE wrapping the first wrap around the line release arm, then the line release arm will only push forward slightly (into the correct position we want). Then I can wrap it and the result will be as I showed.
HOWEVER, if I just slide the shaft into the mech and let it lie there, then wrap the shooting line, then the line release arm will be pushed too much forward, ending up into the position we do not want (shooting line too much to the edge due to the lline release leaning too much towards the muzzle.)
So what is the verdict here?
Is the line release totally off ? Is there a way to fix it, maybe tighten here or there a bit more?

I really don't fancy having to perform another maneuver (ie. pushing the shaft all the way to the right ) everyime I wrap my shooting line :s

 

[Bill McIntyre]

You shouldn't have to do that, but I have no idea how to fix it. Maybe Pete will have an idea.

I wonder if its possible to drop a different brand of mechanism in there? I see guys on Spearboard taking about that all the time, but I think that's mostly with wood guns so that they can do a little cutting or shaving to make things fit. I wouldn't want to try it unless it was an exact fit.

The fact that the shaft is pushed to the right side bothers me too. Could that affect accuracy? Does it cause friction against the right side of the track?

 

[Savagedragon]

You shouldn't have to do that, but I have no idea how to fix it. Maybe Pete will have an idea.

I wonder if its possible to drop a different brand of mechanism in there? I see guys on Spearboard taking about that all the time, but I think that's mostly with wood guns so that they can do a little cutting or shaving to make things fit. I wouldn't want to tru it unless it was an exact fit.

okay forgot my excitement lol that method doesn't work either. The moment there's tension on the shaft (ie. bands) then the shaft will return to it neutral position, which causes the line release arm to push forward as usual. Sigh...

 

[popgun pete]

The wrap sequence is simple once you realize that the line has to wrap the spear between the first and second line wraps and that is why C4 have done it this way. Whenever the line runs back to the line release lever it is wound over the top of the lever and then travels back to the muzzle always winding underneath the muzzle side struts. The line release lever can be set to poke out the other side of the gun for left hand shooters using the second threaded hole. Usually on my guns I have the wraps winding on the right hand side of the gun and being right handed that means the line loops are away from me. I can shoot with either hand, so I just use this as an example. On Russian guns they wrap on the left, so there is no set rule.

One thing you can try is put some shrinky tube on the very tip of the line release lever to fatten it up and put the line wraps inboard of it. The departing line may rip the tube off, but you will be able to see how the gun shoots and the line departs.

I have seen C4 guns virtually thread the eye of a needle on an inclined shot, so they are very accurate when properly set up.

 

[Bill McIntyre]

For what it’s worth I was curious whether or not my shafts got pushed to the side in my Abellans and Ulusub. They don’t and they can’t. There is no room to move sideways even I push them by hand. Maybe it really is a poor design.

 

[Savagedragon]

Look I found a Graphite 116 in action with the same line release placement as mine.
The shooting line sits waay nicer, feels very secure unlike what I have.
Definitely something is off.

 

[popgun pete]

As the sear tooth in the C4 is a cylinder the spear shaft can slide laterally on it. However under band load evenly disposed on either side of the gun the shaft should pull onto the centerline of the trigger mechanism. For guns that don’t have wrap around bands the left and right bands must be of the same length. If the C4 guns have a problem then it is the lack of a trigger safety mechanism as in the interests of self-preservation they should have one. If in doubt ask Jay Riffe about this question!

 

[Savagedragon]

As the sear tooth in the C4 is a cylinder the spear shaft can slide laterally on it. However under band load evenly disposed on either side of the gun the shaft should pull onto the centerline of the trigger mechanism.

How do you explain this, though?
He is wrapping all the shooting line under the line guide. Yet the shooting line sits nice in the middle of the line release arm, feels very secure, unlike mine which sits all the way close to the edge as if it's gonna pop out.

 

[popgun pete]

How do you explain this, though?
He is wrapping all the shooting line under the line guide. Yet the shooting line sits nice in the middle of the line release arm, feels very secure, unlike mine which sits all the way close to the edge as if it's gonna pop out.

The line wraps look very tight. He must have snugged them up with the reel, plus that does not look like mono.

One thing you can check is the rocking cradle on your gun, is it moving properly? The rocking cradle is how the dipping sear tooth system works on a C4.

 

[Bill McIntyre]

OK, I just called Petros and got an answer but you won’t like it. As soon as I described the problem he said “oh, that’s the old style. It works OK for guys in the Med with one wrap of 150 pound mono that doesn’t pull very hard on the line release but with a couple of wraps of heavier mono it sucks.” I asked him if it could be fixed and he said it couldn’t. He took it to Mori, a gun maker and master machinist in Los Angeles who is considered our resident expert, and he couldn’t fix it. He said current versions have an entirely different design and they work. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but I hope this solves the puzzle.

 

[Savagedragon]

OK, I just called Petros and got an answer but you won’t like it. As soon as I described the problem he said “oh, that’s the old style. It works OK for guys in the Med with one wrap of 150 pound mono that doesn’t pull very hard on the line release but with a couple of wraps of heavier mono it sucks.” I asked him if it could be fixed and he said it couldn’t. He took it to Mori, a gun maker and master machinist in Los Angeles who is considered our resident expert, and he couldn’t fix it. He said current versions have an entirely different design and they work. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but I hope this solves the puzzle.

Thanks for the help! that's great
So I should use lighter mono line?
Still, I don't get the 1 wrap part. For this gun I think you have to do a double wrap no matter what due to how the muzzle is designed. One wrap goes back to the line release the second wrap is to go over the shaft to pin it down.

 

[Bill McIntyre]

I wish I could answer that for sure but my impression was that it was a matter of pressure on the line release. I would think even one wrap of thinner mono could pull hard on the line release though. I could PM YOU his cell phone number but my impression is that you’re in Thailand so that might be an expensive call. You’d probably be better off communicating with someone from C4.