C4 Graphite shooting line not sitting tight around the line release? Help?

[Savagedragon]

I am in Czech Republic at the moment. Europe.
He might have whatsapp or other apps on mobile that calls for free. There's video option too so it might be easier to describe it to him

 

[popgun pete]

One last thing to try is cock the gun and see how the line release lever then sits. With band load working on it the gun may sit differently in terms of the aiignment of the parts.

 

[popgun pete]

OK, I just called Petros and got an answer but you won’t like it. As soon as I described the problem he said “oh, that’s the old style. It works OK for guys in the Med with one wrap of 150 pound mono that doesn’t pull very hard on the line release but with a couple of wraps of heavier mono it sucks.” I asked him if it could be fixed and he said it couldn’t. He took it to Mori, a gun maker and master machinist in Los Angeles who is considered our resident expert, and he couldn’t fix it. He said current versions have an entirely different design and they work. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but I hope this solves the puzzle.

The line release lever shape has probably been changed, ask C4 if you can swap the lever for the later one.

 

[Savagedragon]

One last thing to try is cock the gun and see how the line release lever then sits. With band load working on it the gun may sit differently in terms of the aiignment of the parts.

I tried to put the rubber on. It did pull the spear into the center but did nothing to the line release arm. Still too forward

 

[Bill McIntyre]

The line release lever shape has probably been changed, ask C4 if you can swap the lever for the later one.

I wish I could be more explicit but he said something about the line release coming
off the trigger instead of wherever it does now. So it sounds like swapping the lever wouldn’t do it.

But anyway, C4 is in Europe, right? Talk to someone there.

 

[Savagedragon]

Would you recommend any forums? Apparently there are lots of info in Italian forums but I don't speak a word of it.

 

[popgun pete]

I wish I could be more explicit but he said something about the line release coming
off the trigger instead of wherever it does now. So it sounds like swapping the lever wouldn’t do it.

But anyway, C4 is in Europe, right? Talk to someone there.

If you look at the parts photo then you will see the line release lever comes off the sear lever on which is mounted the rocking cradle.

This is a diagram that I did for the "Trigger Mechanism Design Rules" thread and at that time the line release lever was working off the spear shaft.

Trigger Mechanism Design Rules - Spearboard.com - The World's Largest Spearfishing Diving Boating Social Media Forum

Trigger Mechanism Design Rules All About Guns

www.spearboard.com

 

[popgun pete]

For sure they just changed the line release lever as it pivots from the top of the sear box and the only thing it can lean against is the sear lever and rocking cradle assembly. There ain't no magic involved, it is in fact a simple mechanism once you see how it goes together. I have studied and designed trigger mechanisms, some of my work was done with Bill Kitto to create the "MBT" M3.

A Riffe standard trigger mechanism is shown for comparison to show what a whopper the M3 is. The mechanism is for rear mounting in big mid-handle guns and is pushrod operated with a remote trigger which makes up the fourth lever. The sear lever pin is quarter inch diameter and the side plates are 3/16" thick with the mech itself weighing 496 grams. All you have to worry about is hanging on tight when you pull the trigger!

 

[popgun pete]

Here for example is the Fourpin mechanism which was never done in metal as either the mechanism was going to be too big in length or the parts would be too small in a conventionally sized housing, for cannon duty only it is a four lever "cam locker". At this stage the levers lack their timing bumps which short circuit the lever movement during the relatch sequence.

 

[Bill McIntyre]

Bill Kitto, there's a blast from the past. Just a couple of weeks ago a friend from Missouri called me and asked if I knew how to contact him, and I had to say I hadn't heard of him or from him for years. Is he still alive?

Bill was almost a caricature of the inarticulate engineer type. You might send him an email with three questions and he would answer with "yes." Huh?

In 2000 we had a millennium party for the old Freedivelist and Bill was there as was Ray Klefstad, the guy who was making guns with him. Late in the evening they were standing together and Ray said "Bill wants to know-----" I forget what, but I replied. Then we did it with at least three more questions. Bill is standing there and Ray is asking questions for him. I was tempted to ask if he had been struck mute, but I didn't. Why couldn't he ask for himself?

Last I heard of him was when Ron Mullins, one of the best divers in California, had Bill make custom guns for himself and a friend to his specifications. One of the specifications was that the guns float with the shaft out. They paid a fortune for the guns and found that they sank with the shaft out. Bill had some reason why he thought that was better but it wasn't what the guys wanted, so they gave him back the guns and got their money back.

 

[popgun pete]

Bill Kitto, there's a blast from the past. Just a couple of weeks ago a friend from Missouri called me and asked if I knew how to contact him, and I had to say I hadn't heard of him or from him for years. Is he still alive?

Bill was almost a caricature of the inarticulate engineer type. You might send him an email with three questions and he would answer with "yes." Huh?

In 2000 we had a millennium party for the old Freedivelist and Bill was there as was Ray Klefstad, the guy who was making guns with him. Late in the evening they were standing together and Ray said "Bill wants to know-----" I forget what, but I replied. Then we did it with at least three more questions. Bill is standing there and Ray is asking questions for him. I was tempted to ask if he had been struck mute, but I didn't. Why couldn't he ask for himself?

Last I heard of him was when Ron Mullins, one of the best divers in California, had Bill make custom guns for himself and a friend to his specifications. One of the specifications was that the guns float with the shaft out. They paid a fortune for the guns and found that they sank with the shaft out. Bill had some reason why he thought that was better but it wasn't what the guys wanted, so they gave him back the guns and got their money back.

The M3 and later M5 were designed for a Super Gun that Ron, whom I know, called the "Das Gun" and which Kitto had built. The gun was enormous and trembled under the massive band load, so much so that there was fear that it may violently disintegrate as the energy stored was well past lethal and easily able to send shards of the gun flying even underwater. That was when it was decided that there were limits and the main one was the diver unless he came from Krypton. Any accidents would be terminal for the user, so the project was reluctantly shelved and the guns put into store.

And yes, Ron is still alive, I was just communicating with him a couple of days ago and as far as I know so is Kitto. Kitto did the M6 through to M8 trigger mechanism which JBL use in their Woodies, the M8 has timing bumps. Mori did the first try at that three lever mech and I chimed in on the spring locations and the use of timing bumps.

 

[Bill McIntyre]

I know Ron is still alive- I saw him on Facebook yesterday. I was asking about Kitto.

 

[popgun pete]

I know Ron is still alive- I saw him on Facebook yesterday. I was asking about Kitto.

Which I answered.

 

[Savagedragon]

Right, so I talked to the store owner and the story is that this is how the gun was designed and the line release arm should make for a smooth shot.
Also C4 no longer makes any more guns, just fins now.
The store owner will try to find some compatible line release arm for me and we'll see what happens.

 

[Bill McIntyre]

Good luck.

 

[popgun pete]

Right, so I talked to the store owner and the story is that this is how the gun was designed and the line release arm should make for a smooth shot.
Also C4 no longer makes any more guns, just fins now.
The store owner will try to find some compatible line release arm for me and we'll see what happens.

Odd then that C4 still list guns on their website with no mention of cessation of gun production. Right now only the “Graphite” and “Urukay” are listed and from an earlier thread I remember reading that the “Joker” was discontinued as it was not really such an advantage to have an adjustable length gun (extra spears). Also components are made in batches, so it is possible they have spare mechanism parts and if I were you then I would write to them, preferably in Italian. You have nothing to lose by doing so. Contesub make parts for C4 guns, so you could try them.

ConteSub

Negozio creato usando PrestaShop

www.contesub.it

 

[Bill McIntyre]

If C4 is no longer making guns Its strange that Petros didn’t mention that when I talked to him. All i could figure was that he had inventory that he wanted to sell. No one wants to buy a gun that’s no longer made.

 

[popgun pete]

Well I just purchased a "Mr Dark", "in the interests of science", and will waste no time in pulling it apart once it gets here. In my view there is no point in a carbon fiber gun if it just mimics a shape easily realizable in timber as bar the stiffness there ain't much in it. But when a gun is a weirdo shape like the “Mr Dark”, which I could not see being realized in timber with that long front skinny barrel, then that is where carbon fiber comes into its own.

The "Mr Dark" looks like something Salvador Dali dreamt up, he of melting clock fame, so it will be interesting to see how it handles when cocked to shoot and how it floats after discharge in the water column.

 

[Bill McIntyre]

I agree about not getting the appeal of carbon fiber if it mimics the shape of wood. Oceanborne guns seem to be getting popular, but they are shaped pretty much like my Abellans and you can't drill holes in them. I've drilled holes and added things to every wood gun I've ever owned. One Wong hybrid had three different sets of stainless steel inserts for different reels I used over the years. On my Abellans I have a Wong style loading tab on the left side and a stainless loop on the right for keeping the shooting line alway from the bands and for routing the breakaway bungee through so a sideways pull on the float line can't pull the bungee off the line release. You can't modify a carbon fiber gun like that.

 

[popgun pete]

Exactly, you can modify your timber gun without worrying about breaking through into some buoyancy chamber or foam core and like you I have drilled extra holes in my timber guns. Carbon fiber guns like the C4 are eggshell constructions, but with a thick and stiff "shell". One has to remember C4's background is bicycle frames in carbon fiber and top bikes are in the region of USD10 to 20 grand and up! No pro road cyclist rides anything else but carbon fiber frames and with sponsors putting up lots of cash that is where the money is, so carbon fiber spearguns are just a sideline.