[News] Famed Magician In Freediving World Record Stunt

[pkotik]

Nice start, Will. Thanks for stepping up. Comments :

Either the argument boils dry or it doesn't. I'm not sure what your liberal use of 'inverted commas' means. 'Boils dry' means it doesn't really boil dry. 'David Blaine WR' means it's not really a David Blaine WR. Does it boil dry or not ? Is it a David Blaine WR or not ?

I think you've made a good start here at formulating the objector position with respect to the David Blaine event. Would you please continue ? This is getting close to the heart of the matter:

My suggestions:

- You've argued that the Blaine event is abusing AIDA and its athletes. Tell readers why this is so, and also why this is a reason to object. Your argument presumes that AIDA is universally regarded as sacrosanct. It obviously isn't ! Tell the readers why you think it is important to preserve the prestige and authority of AIDA.

- It is always easy, and always unpersuasive to characterize the objects of one's criticism as afraid and/or lazy. You say that the persons involved in the Blaine stunt can't be bothered or are too scared to use the AIDA rules. You don't explain why they should use the AIDA rules, and what evidence you adduce to support your contention that they are afraid or lazy. You don't name the people you're referring to. Tell the reader why anyone should care whether AIDA is involved, and how you know that specific individuals ( by name ) are too lazy or too scared to involve AIDA.

The action item you've proposed also seems to me to be a terrific first step at engaging this issue. It doesn't, however, tie back to your initial point about abusing AIDA. How will this action item mitigate or rectify damage to AIDA ? Will you, yourself, be active in the action program you've suggested ? If so, what will your chief motive(s) be ? If not, why not ?

Thanks for your time and energy on this issue. Please continue !

 

[Haydn]

With the idea of breathing compressed air (not O2) and getting an advantage. Aida rules dont appear to forbid this, neither fasting and scuba diving before a static. I cant see that David will actually be breaking any rules unless he cheats or deceives us. This is why I dont like the idea that the attempt may try to foist a new world record on us. And why its not Aida ?is because Kirk knows the attempt is a deception and he simply wont allow Aida to be involved, thus preserving the integrity of the world record. If David appears to beat the world record but fails to assert his time as a new record, I think that will speak volumes, because at the end of the day, if its a cheat or illusion, he couldnt possibly allow himself to steal the record by claimimg it. We simply wont know the truth of it because Kirk is gagged. Its going to be a great show, and all strength to Kirks elbow, for being a part of it.
As for doing a simultaneous record attempt, (step forward Tom, Sam, Natalia), these genuine attempts would fail under the 30 day rule. Spadge Hopkins said it the best "B******S to the rules". Lets just enjoy the spectacle.

 

[Fondueset]

I agree it is an opportunity for AIDA to get some publicity and assert it's standards in a friendly and professional way. Since Kirk has developed a relationship with Blaine it's reasonable to assume there is no adversarial relationship. Certainly nothing will be served by developing one.

In my opinion the most fruitful approach is to blend with the energy of the event and make use of it - to whatever degree that is possible.

 

[pkotik]

Haydn,

Help me out here - I'm wearing my journalist hat now.

You say: "...Kirk knows the attempt is a deception and he simply wont allow Aida to be involved." Two specific assertions...

And you say: "...Kirk is gagged." A third specific assertion.

Are you speculating here, or are you privy to concrete evidence supporting these 3 assertions ? If you have concrete evidence, can you disclose it here in the forum, or to me with a private message ? This goes right to the heart of the matter. DB readers want to know what's going on, and I've got to distinguish between fact and opinion on the readership's behalf.

If these are simply your opinions, or inferences, or hunches- that's fine, all grist for the mill. I chase down everything. It would help me prioritize my chasing, though, if I knew whether you're speaking from evidence or not. Please feel free to contact me privately if you're gagged or not comfortable disclosing sources in the public forum.

Many thanks for your inputs.

 

[pkotik]

I'd like to thank everybody for the thoughts and opinions expressed here on the David Blaine show. Keep it coming, please !

 

[neshamah]

Hi. Paul are you going to be ther at the NY event?


I will be there also

 

[trux]

Since Blaine is an illusionist by profession and he proudly admits he uses tricks just like Houdini did, his attempt should be definitely scrutinized and verified much closer than any attempt of normal freedivers during competitions.

If Blaine does not respect AIDA rules, and does not let it certify his attempt by AIDA, he (and the media) should definitely renounce from calling it a World Record. It would be as ridiculous to call the attempt a WR as it would be calling David Copperfield's flights over the stage World Records in Light Athletic height and length jumping.

Blaine should respect AIDA rules for surfacing protocol, drug tests, and should not use pressurized air to breath before the attempt (I'd tell at least few hours before it). Try to come to any AIDA competition with a tank, making your preparation under the surface breathing from the tank - you can bet that you'll be disqualified. Finally AIDA rules have a paragraph forbidding any performance enhancing tools or means - I'd need to check for the exact definition, but I am pretty sure it could be used for the pressurized air.

Generally, I have nothing against Blaine, admire his stunts, and consider him a very physically and psychically capable person, but calling his stunt a "World Record" is a bad joke and a spit into the face of every freediving athlete.

 

[pkotik]

I will, indeed, be there for the event. Sesh ahat sheva shtayim shmoneh shalosh shmoneh efesefes shesh, peleh !

 

[pkotik]

Trux,

I hear your passion -but you don't tell us why David Blaine should do any of the things you recommend - not call it a World Record, follow AIDA protocols, etc. . Why should he ? If you can make a case for the why of it, please do - this is what we are missing here. There are a lot of folks who seem to share your position on this, but everybody seems to be stuck as far as providing a reason for why David Blaine should do anything but what he wants to do. "Because I want him to" isn't much of a case. A little help here, guys.

Personally, I want him to write me a check for several million dollars so I can take a few years off, but I can't make much of a case for that ! I can say "it would be good for me", but somehow that doesn't seem too persuasive.

 

[trux]

...but you don't tell us why David Blaine should do any of the things you recommend - not call it a World Record, follow AIDA protocols, etc. . Why should he ?

I think I already wrote it. Is David Copperfield's flying tens of meters up and in distance a World Record in Light Athletics? No, it is not. He did not follow the official rules and was never certified as a recordman. Although he "jumped" much higher and much longer many times than any athlete, it is not a World Record and he has no right to call it so. Blaine can do his attempt without AIDA, and is free to call it the longest apnea in special conditions, but I do not think that he is authorized to call it a World Record in static apnea or even an attempt to break a World Record. If he does it in the same conditions as other athlets, then I'll be happy to hear the statements about breaking a record, but not if there are no judges, no surfacing protocol, no doping test, and not when he breathes pressurized air.

 

[laminar]

Paul - Kirk mentioned to a few of us before Xmas that he would be signing a non-disclosure agreement with David Blaine about this event. I don't know the parameters of it, but I would assume that it's in place now.

Pete

 

[Fondueset]

Obviously there are a few different ways to read this. And some key information we don't have.

I gather he's trying to hold his breath for longer than the world record - but I don't know that he is going for an official world record. Anybody know?

I also don't know if (assuming he is going for the record officially) he plans to follow the AIDA rules.

Blaine is a performer - so really his mission is accomplished just defining the stunt and pulling it off with an audience. There really is no compelling reason for him to go for an official record. It's enough to say he's trying to hold is breath longer than the record.

His forty day fast is not a record - unless you add in qualifiers like the plexiglass case, London, flying hotdogs etc.

 

[pkotik]

Trux,

I think you've hit the nail on the head.

You've called attention to the real question, or one of them, at the heart of this controversy: what is the status of AIDA ?

You call AIDA rules the "official rules". I think most all of the people reading Deeper Blue and interacting in these forums would agree with you - as would I, personally, not that I matter.

But Mr. Blaine, or anybody else for that matter, can come back and ask " Sez who ?" Who says AIDA is the final, ultimate authority in matters of freediving ?

Well, AIDA says so, for one. You've said so, for another. I expect lots of readers would also say so.

Mr. Blaine, his agents, sponsors, and audience may well say " Bull. AIDA is just a bunch of self-crowned kings, and now I am the new king."

There's a middle position, too , as if things weren't controversial enough already. A moderate might say something like this: " Look, AIDA is the self-appointed, ratified-by-membership authority for competitive amateur freediving in this world. I'm an AIDA member, and I wouldn't take any event not sanctioned by AIDA seriously. I might enjoy it, but I wouldn't take it as comparable with an AIDA event. Apples to oranges. That said, AIDA doesn't have the power to stop David Blaine or anybody else from calling his performance a world record. If the ABC network is a dog, well, AIDA is just a flea. However, it's our flea, so let's continue to support and respect AIDA in our own freediving. "

As usual, the moderates are the most long-winded !

Trux, I really don't think you've told us why David Blaine should change anything about what he's doing. What you've written so far boils down to " Because we say so and it's good for us ", speaking from the AIDA community's point of view. As far as I can tell, you're arguing that Mr. Blaine should voluntarily ( since AIDA can't compel him ) damage his business interests because it would somehow help AIDA and AIDA's members. Why would he or any other business person make a decision like that ? I honestly don't know, but it seems to me that you've got the answer and haven't quite expressed it yet.

I hope you'll keep trying, making your position clear on behalf of the community I'm certain you represent very well.

Thanks again.

 

[trux]

But Mr. Blaine, or anybody else for that matter, can come back and ask " Sez who ?" Who says AIDA is the final, ultimate authority in matters of freediving ?

Well, Paul, if he wants he can comply to rules of another freediving organization (F.R.E.E., CMAS/FFESSM, IAFD), or Guinness (who refers to AIDA records), but adhering just and only to his own rules is really nothing than ignorance and lapse of respect. He can't be surprised if others then have no respect for him or his "record" either.

If everyone can set records following his own rules, then I am going to break the World Record in static apnea tonight. Well, I do not invite anyone, since my rules do not require any wisdoms, and I'll make some unusual preparation that is my own secret, but I am going to break the World Record by 70 minutes!!!

Also, Tom Sietas did static apneas over 10 minutes, and static apnea record of 15 minutes after breathing oxygene - does anyone call these attempts World Record in static apnea? No. Maybe a record in O2 apnea. So let's call Davids stunt to be a record of static apnea with a pressurized air in special conditions, but not a World Record in static apnea as it appears in all media reports about him. Will Blaine claim his attempt is a World Record only if he exceeds them, or already if he exceeds the current AIDA record of 8:58? If so, then he should respect the AIDA rules too, otherways the world record in apnea s much higher than 8:58.

BTW, even if Blaine breaks the AIDA's World Record, and the 10+ min training record of Tom Sietas, or his 15' O2 record, he still has no world record in apnea - that belongs to Pakino from Philippines who is capable to stay under water for more than 60 min. It was reported by Pravda ("Truth" in Russian) so it must be true. I posted about it here. I trust Pravda as much as I trust Blaine.

So sorry, if Blaine does not let his attemp certify by AIDA or another organization, then he is no record holder - the record holder is Pakino

 

[Stephan Whelan]

One thing i'd like to point out (and has been asked a few times). If you read the official press release at no point does he say he's going to try and break the official AIDA world record...

...just that he is going to attempt to hold his breath longer than the current longest known limit 8min58.

It's a very subtle difference but one that should be noted

He doesn't declare that 8min58 is a record (it isn't the longest someone has held their breathe - i've seen Tom Sietas do 10min) only "to hold his breath underwater longer than any human being".

What the rest of the media (and i've been fielding calls all day from media) choose to think and read into the release is up to the editors and journos out there.

 

[trux]

One thing i'd like to point out (and has been asked a few times). If you read the official press release at no point does he say he's going to try and break the official AIDA world record...

Of course, he does not tell he is going to establish a new AIDA World Record (he knows it would be never confirmed), but I read on many places (and I believe on his website too - I'll have to verify it though) that he is going to break the current World Record of 8:58, which then means to me that he will follow exactly the same rules as were used for that record. Otherwise, the unofficial world record is either 10:09 (Sietas in training), 15:01 (Sietas under O2), 10+ (many ancient pearldivers reportedly dived for longer than 10 minutes), or 60+ minutes of Pakino

 

[trux]

OK, I just looked at Blaine's website - he claims this:

"Blaine Will Attempt to Hold His Breath Underwater Longer Than Any Other Human Being"

On another place he claims:

"He will demonstrate how he willed his body to defy physiological limits in his dogged pursuit of the eight-minute, fifty-eight second breath-hold barrier."

So what's true? The first one or the second one? If he surpasses 8:58 just by few seconds, then it is definitely not "Longer Than Any Other Human Being" and hence it is no world record in any aspect. I see references to breaking the World Record in static apnea almost in every article about Blaine - and that's what I do not find fair. I admit that his performance is astonishing, but the way he advertizes it, is far from being clean and fair.

 

[Stephan Whelan]

OK two points here:

but I read on many places (and I believe on his website too - I'll have to verify it though) that he is going to break the current World Record of 8:58

Just because a website, newspaper or TV channel chooses to interpret that he is going to break the current AIDA world record doesn't mean that David, or his PR people actually said he would.

which then means to me that he will follow exactly the same rules as were used for that record.

Does it? He hasn't explictly said so. Why should he? Just because he chose to use an AIDA record as a benchmark doesn't mean he is going to follow the same rules.

 

[Stephan Whelan]

but the way he advertizes it

Who says he is advertising it in that way. I hate to be picky (but I will ) but you just said he doesn't say he is going to break the AIDA world record.

My point is this...

The Press Release is worded in such a way (as good PR people are able to do) that the media and public can choose to believe he is going to try and break a world record, but David Blaine hasn't said that he will be going to try and set a new world record.

The media is choosing to suggest that he is going to break the AIDA world record.

 

[tylerz]

My suggestions:
- You've argued that the Blaine event is abusing AIDA and its athletes. Tell readers why this is so, and also why this is a reason to object. Your argument presumes that AIDA is universally regarded as sacrosanct. It obviously isn't ! Tell the readers why you think it is important to preserve the prestige and authority of AIDA.

Throughout this thread I think this has already been addressed many times. Maybe one has to keep track of the points and see the implications, for most of the entries to count. However, it was explicitly pointed out a few times. Namely:

Some feel that if one (David Blaine) attempts a performance (8:58) to the masses in comparison to a standard (AIDA's 8:57 by Tom Sietas) then, if not explicitly stated (not claimed to be an independant metric of record), it will be assumed by the masses that it qualifies (AIDA World Record) to the standard. If the masses perceive the standard (AIDA World Record) to be a value that it is not then, a falsity exists in the masses with regards to the standard and its representatives (AIDA). It is important and a natural tendency of many individuals and organizations to not be perceived in a false manner, therefore a community (AIDA, Tom Sietas, freedivers aware and interested in AIDA) subjected to a false perception will feel the weight of this, which promotes more effort required on their part to bring the facts (distinction between David's attempt and AIDA attempts) to light. If the source (David's media event) of this false state is identified, then it is natural tendency to assess the fairness of the circumstances surrounding how the source reached the point of inducing this state. Identifying that the source had information about the standard and its community, leaves only the question of whether the source could have easily foreseen the impact of their actions on this community. This question being satisfied with a "yes, the source could", would naturally lead to the community having the inclination to say an injustice has been done to them. If you relate it to individual circumstances, humans don't tend to accept that being subjected to unsolicited and unapproved work for the gain of a stranger, is a just state of affairs.

It is only natural that if the community suspects such a state to have the high possibility of being induced, then they would support actions of lesser effort to avoid the greater effort. This lesser effort is to voice an injustice about to happen in the attempt to be heard and that a significant listener involved in the events may have the power and inclination to ensure such a state does not ensue. If the community is ignored and/or a lack of consideration is employed when it is perceived as obvious that the participants of the event were privy to the information and concerns, then it would easily be identified as abuse to the community.

[disclaimer - just stating my view on the reasoning, not that I necessarily support the argument. I just like clear paths of reason for reasoning sake.]

I don't see the argument having anything to do with presuming "that AIDA is universally regarded as sacrosanct" or "important to preserve the prestige and authority of AIDA". Those seem to be assumptions personally derived from your own ideas of the arguments implications. Logically it does not follow that those implications are more than assumptions.

You don't explain why they should use the AIDA rules,

Tell the reader why anyone should care whether AIDA is involved,

In this post of Will's:
[ame="http://forums.deeperblue.net/showthread.php?p=591651#post591651"][News] Famed Magician In Freediving World Record Stunt - Page 3[/ame]

... he does express his response to these statements, although it is left for the reader to employ a degree of reason towards deriving the same path of reason that allows the first two points to lead to the two conclusions. Is it too large of a jump for most people to follow? Anyhow, my above view of the argument applies here as well, so building on that...

It was not specified that they should use the AIDA rules in absolute. It was only specified in lieu of the comparison to AIDA's standards. So, the argument is that if one compares themselves to a standard, without any distinction, then it only makes sense to do so, if you follow that standard. Simple enough reasoning.

The action item you've proposed also seems to me to be a terrific first step at engaging this issue. It doesn't, however, tie back to your initial point about abusing AIDA. How will this action item mitigate or rectify damage to AIDA ?

What I derive about the proposed action, is that it gives the audience two frames of reference to distinguish between the meaning of the values (static times) produced. Therefore, it is emphasized that David Blaine's attempt is not replacing the AIDA attempt. Therefore, no extra effort is required later to remove a fallacy.