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Static with no warm-up

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
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thanks for your opinion! i think i must look for a partner who watch me for more static^^ ,my struggle phase is always 2.30 -2.40 with no hypervintilation .....,so i try it to make a max attempt every day in the holidays.... than i tell you about my time!!
but i think cardio is also a little part of the training,because some profi freedivers make it also... not every day but they do it. or i think wrong... !?
on the other side cardio built muscles ----> then you have more body mass...
but when you have more muscles you can do better dynamic...???
that built the last question:
when i do big dynamics i must do long statics and THAN i try dynamics....?
or is that wrong...
 
With no hyperventilation I mean that you are not controlling your breathing prior the attempt. No slow exhales etc.
My first contraction comes at 1:20 these days.

I am not sure I understand your last question. The best is to create your personal training plan. It depends on your training conditions (free time, place to dive, cardio) and your goal for the season (PB, competition, etc) how it will look. You can choose static PB as a goal for the first part of the season and dynamic PB for the second one.

You should start the season with cardio, muscle and technique training. With your D-day getting nearer, you shall add more special training (static or dynamic) and do less cardio.
 
I am sorry, but I have to express certain level of disagreement and discomfort with your advices here. I consider them dangerous, harming our sport, and setting potential beginners reading it into serious risk:
O'Boy said:
It was mentioned in some earlier post in this thread, that you have to reach at least 2:30 in contractions phase to create some chemical reactions strong enough to initiate improvement in static time.
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I am not aware of any chemical reaction improving breath-hold after 2:30 (or whatever else time) of contractions. It is rather the opposite that is true - contractions are signs of hypercapnia, which means also higher acidity of blood. The acidity of blood directly influences the ability of hemoglobin to bind oxygen. It means when you are highly acidic during prolonged hypercapnia, the ability of blood to bind remaining oxygen in lungs becomes weaker and weaker.

I assume that it is the Diving Reflex (DR) (aka Diving Response, or Mammalian Reflex) what you are referring to. However, that's not a chemical reaction (though, of course, hormonal secretion and complex chemical processes are part of every physiological reaction), but a combination of many physiological effects (bradycardia, vasoconstriction, blood shift, blood shunt, hematocrit release from contracted spleen,...). And it is not necessarily bind to being certain time in contractions. Although CO2 is an important factor at triggering the DR, it is far to be the only one. Top freedivers usually have a strong and early DR, and that helps them consuming less oxygen.

O'Boy said:
For a beginner this time may be something like a goal to reach. Later, when you become familiar with this approach to static, you will find that this time (2:30) is way too short to create the needed effect.
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I do not think that a beginner should set any such goals, or that he should try to achieve any specific times under contractions, in apnea, or whatever. Each individual is very different, and the only goal a beginner should set is listening to his/her body signals a learn to exit before getting into troubles. I consider recommending any such goals to beginners as extremely dangerous, and a thing that should be definitely avoided.

O'Boy said:
The MAX time for me is when I have BO knowing that I've made no mistake in preparation (hyperventilation).
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If I do not agree with the previous claims, I consider this one a real expression of a dangerous extremist, and I hope you were not serious when writing it. I also hope no beginners will ever consider listening to it. Defining the BO (or samba) as your max, is something that shocks me. LMC and BO are accidents, and should be considered an unacceptable failure (regardless of the preparation). Every freediver should try avoiding them. Beginners should never reach the danger area. They first need to learn proper techniques, hypoxic and hypercapnic tolerance, and especially get sufficient experience and confidence with reading their body signals, before ever approaching any limit pushing. And even then, they should definitely never ever try holding their breath until LMC or BO. Not even at competitions or other max performances.
 
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Maybe this explains why I have not had much success so far with the no warm-up approach. Hypercapnia definitely seems to reduce my times. I thought I wasn't being brave enough, but maybe there is more to it than that.
 
I agree with trux that a samba or BO is never to be seen as your maximum. It is an accident that can occur due to many factors. Exploring your limits by pushing that far is dangerous and ineffective.

I do not, however, se in what way going for your max in the first attempt would be anything more dangerous than any other way. I think he is right when he says that you have to spend some time in contractions to get the fullest out of this method. Both when you consider results and body adaptions. I beleive that without any warm ups and hyperventilation before your breathhold, just relaxing and maybe some stretches, will in time result in a faster DR.

At the moment I do all my maximum breathholds this way, but for me the big factor is not physiological. The good thing about this method, for me, is that you get your mind of the contractions and focus on the other signals. You also minimize the preparation wich makes it more reproducable. In my opinion a very elaborate preparation will make you a wreck! if you have to baheve a certain way several hours before a breathhold there is so many things that can go wrong. It is also easier to evaluate any changes in your preparation when you add them to a minimum of preparations.
 
I do not want to recommend a certain time spent in contractions by the way. To give a specific number to anyone is not the way since that can be to much for one diver and not enough for another, but only the "to much" is relevant from a safety point of view.
 
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ok i think about it when i create my personal training..!

thank you for the answeres i will try it^^!
 
perow1 said:
I do not, however, se in what way going for your max in the first attempt would be anything more dangerous than any other way. I think he is right when he says that you have to spend some time in contractions to get the fullest out of this method.
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Hmm, I did not tell that, and am sorry if it sounded so. And I also do not think that O'Boy meant doing a preparation with a specific total time of contractions, but rather holding through contractions during 2:30, which is what I consider a dangerous advice especially if proposed as a goal for beginners. Yes, sure building up you resistance to contractions (better told learning how to avoid resisting them and simply let them happen) is needed in the training, but (as you mention in your next post too) setting any such goal is not really the best approach.
 


Hi Sedate,

I should have been a bit more accurate in my original post. I believe the issue is not TLC increasing, but rather Residual Volume. What is residual volume? [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lung_volumes]Lung volumes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame] It is essentially air in the lungs that cannot be exhaled.

I'm still not sure why residual volume increases with packing. Perhaps a doctor or someone else can speculate. But I know of some people who have had this happen and they practised packing their lungs.

I've heard freedivers talking about reducing residual volume in order to equalize deeper. But is this really possible? (Seb, Eric, trux?)

I think what's more likely is that TLC increases through increased flexibility of the chest and thoracic muscles, connective tissues and joints of the rib cage, which then accounts for a relative percentage decrease in RV (RV is a fraction of TLC). If RV is to keep the lungs pressurized - ie. preventing them from collapsing, then reducing RV would seem impossible.

Now what about increasing RV? This would appear (anecdotally) to be associated with squeeze, inability to equalize deep without incident and discomfort while diving, and, I would guess, added buoyancy(!). What is the mechanism for this? If you stretch the lungs outward suddenly (by a sudden and drastic program of lung packing) could this stretch some tissues within the lungs? Air would fill that extra space and then an exhale would not be able to expire this air because it lives in a new "pocket" of the lung. I believe the way I'm talking about the lungs is overly simplified. I don't know enough about the lung to speculate more accurately. :duh Perhaps there is a certain part of the lung that would be more likely to get stretched out.

So, to answer your question, Sedate, I'm not entirely sure what's going on with your lungs at depth and what the "strong pressure" you feel is. Perhaps the pressure you feel is actually your efforts to draw air out of your lungs in order to equalize. Increasing chest flexibility is certainly very important for both equalizing and safer diving. Instead of stretching with packing (as many do), I would work on diaphragm control through breathing exercises (like pranayama), uddihyana bandha (sucking in your diaphragm while seated), a regular stretching program of the core muscles (yoga would be good) and strengthening your breathing and chest muscles through aerobic exercise like swimming, x-c skiing, yoga, or anything that involves arm and core movements.

I believe the safest way to prepare the body for depth is through exercise, diaphragm control and cautious progress.

Pete
 
I'm also not an expert, but that sounds like a plausible explanation. Certainly some kind of stretching of tissues must be involved. That doesn't sound good.

O'Boy, perhaps you misunderstood this post?
I think it just quotes 2:30 as an example time, not as a goal to aim for.
 
Hey,

first of all I want to thank Trux and others for the comments and I'll try to explain certain things.

I've given this method (or approach) a try because I wanted to avoid SAMBAs and BOs which were quite common in my performances. This method is hard and extreme in its way (so you can call me an extremist) but it delivers 100% results regarding cleanliness of an attempt in the end.
Since I started to use it I've had one minor samba which came after stupid mistake. Almost all freedivers from our club accepted this approach and I can't recall any samba or BO for them since that time. We but all've improved our times and distances.

I agree that it is not a good idea to advice beginners to hold their breath till SAMBA or BO. My sentence sounded like that and for that I appologize. I am not advising anybody to have sambas or BOs.

The truth is however that everybodys theoretical maximum is a BO. When your SaO2 reaches certain level you are gonna pass-out whether you made some mistake or not.
I wanted to say that this method delivers the best results when you are able to get as close to your MAX as it gets (and stay conscious, of course).

2:30
As Naiad had written Eric Fattah used this time as an example in one of his posts. He assumed this time may be needed for the spleen to fully contract. That was his idea and this idea could either be right or wrong.
Whole this thread and approach (no warm-up, no breath-up) is based on ideas and assumptions. Some of us had given it a try and it worked. The performances are better and there are no (or less) sambas nor BOs. For me, that is something like confirmation that these assumptions may've been right.
Eric maybe completely abandoned this (2:30) idea sice then, but who can tell where is the truth?
Oh, Trux did... because he is not aware of any chemical reaction improving breath-hold after 2:30 of contractions. My mistake was to write chemical reaction instead of chemical and physiological changes.
(and Trux, you are right with the hypercapnia being responsible for reduced ability of hemoglobin to bind O2 in the lungs, yet the Bohr effect means also that thanks to this weakened connection between Hb and O2 there is much higher release of the already bound O2 in the tissues).

The higher level of CO2 is surely not the only factor at triggering DR, but it may be the most important.

Setting of goals for beginners may be dangerous but I consider setting 2:30 spent in contractions with this method as a goal less dangerous then 2:30 breath-hold done classically (with all kinds of breath-up, warm-up and listening to signals).

I only mentioned it as an example of decent time in contractions in my post. Later I've written that it may become something like a goal.
 
Reactions: naiad
O'Boy said:
The truth is however that everybodys theoretical maximum is a BO. ...
Click to expand...
I am sorry, but I still consider it a very wrong and very dangerous approach. Of course, it is correct that trying to move your PB behind the time when you black out is nonsense, but using it as a limit is absolutely absurd. In no way you should relate your performance to the BO, or measure it by it. You should simply never get there. From your posts we might be under the impression that you suggest that one has to go first till the BO to find his own limit. Sorry, but that's still nonsense and very dangerous one. What is good for? I do not believe that you really think that if you once BO at 6:40, you can then safely hold your breath to 6:30. You are certainly aware that it is nonsense, and that depending on countless circumstances and factors, the same freediver can blackout once at 4 and other time at 7 minutes. What is the BO experience then good for? The best approach is avoiding it, and learning to approach your max from the safe side, not vice versa.

O'Boy said:
2:30
As Naiad had written Eric Fattah used this time as an example in one of his posts. He assumed this time may be needed for the spleen to fully contract.
Click to expand...
The splenic contraction is something very individual. At most people it contracts very minimally. It is usually better at trained persons, but the speed and extent of the contraction is very individual. Splenic contraction is in no direct relation to diaphragmatic contractions. Spleen contracts very slowly, but decontracts even much slower - at serial diving, some measurable increase of volume can be observe only about 60 minutes after the last dive.

We are not prefabricate machines, all with the exactly same metabolism, physiology, and psychics, so telling that you need to stay 2:30 in contractions to trigger the splenic contraction is a confusing advice (and dangerous for the newbies reading it). The process of DR is quite complex, and there are many approaches for maximizing it through a proper warm-up (or even through no-warm up at all). Each of these methods has its advantages and disadvantages, and may promote some of the DR effects more than others, and may work at each individual, or under changed circumstances differently. And yes, of course, some level of hypercapnic exercise is certainly important for triggering the DR, and is part of most max warm-ups, but telling that you need to stay 2:30 in contractions is oversimplified and confused. At some persons, shorter repetitive apneas may have better effect, at others intense exhale apneas are more preferable, some prefer the first-dive shock effect for triggering a strong DR, etc. Finally, that was nicely summarized by Laminar in another thread, and discussed here in sufficient extent too. And although most freedivers indeed do several long breath-holds during their warm-up, there is no reason why they should stay 2:30 in contractions. At beginners who's PB is less than that, or just little but higher, it would be impossible and could lead to a BO, and at many freedivers used to contractions of 4 or 5 minutes, it might not have any sufficient effect.

My conclusion is: avoid setting any such goals or limits - like 2:30 of contractions, or time till BO, or a specific apnea time or whatever else - that's the wrong way, and the wrong focus. Instead, focus on your body and psychics, and try finding ways to maximize your DR, and to sense the end without watching the time. It will not only help you understanding your body better, and progress faster, but also you will enjoy freediving, both training and recreational diving, much better and safer!
 
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Yes, and I would likte to turn it around aswell. Just because you accidentally might have blacket out at a certain time, even with this method, you cannot say that this is your limit. You may be able to go forther the same week. I do not suggest that someone will go and try to "beat" theri blackout time some days after I am just trying to illustrate that the blackout can depend on factors out of our own control, like a nondetected infection or anything at all. So even if you are healthy and fit and have been trough good training you cannot say that you blacked out because of reaching a limit, it is probable, but not sure. What I mean is that i want to second the suggestion that considering your max to be at the blackout level is not a great approach. There are many other things you can analyze to see what was your max. Then, ofcourse, the ultimate limit is; no more oxygen.



I took part in the swedish "spleen project" that was done by the swedish scientists at the WC this december. They claimed that the spleen whent back to the original size after 10 or 20 mins following the apnea. The did measurments with ultrasound. It was neat to see your spleen like a little baby on the screen. Significant contractions of the spleen could be seen in most of the divers taking part after only short apnéas. Unfortunatly they had chosen a very uncomfortable body position for the breathhold and the room was very hot. FOr me, and many others, the "max" times was not very good.
 
perow1 said:
I took part in the swedish "spleen project" that was done by the swedish scientists at the WC this december. They claimed that the spleen whent back to the original size after 10 or 20 mins following the apnea.
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Interesting. When I spoke about partial recharge after 60 minutes I quoted this document: Spleen volume and blood flow response to repeated breath-hold apneas -- Bakovic et al. 95 (4): 1460 -- Journal of Applied Physiology :
A rapid decrease in spleen volume (
20% in both apnea divers and intact persons) was mainly completed throughout the first apnea. The spleen did not recover in size between apneas and only partly recovered 60 min after apnea #5.
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There are certainly individual differences, and I guess the method in those two researches differed too - in the above quoted research of the University of Split (Croatia), they specifically researched splenic effects at repeated breath-hold apneas. Maybe in your case effects of individual apneas were examined, what would explain the difference of recovery time. Don't you happen to know if the result of the research you participated at is available online (preferably in English)?
 
The results from the test performed this december is probably not published yet. The long test consisted of serial apneas of 2 mins with a given resting period inbetween ending with a max apnea. Blood samples were collected after each breathhold.

The names of some of their articles can be found on their homepage, here:
Mittuniversitetet. - Research
 
trux said:
What is the BO experience then good for? The best approach is avoiding it, and learning to approach your max from the safe side, not vice versa.
Click to expand...

how will you know it was your max then? every freediver and even the beginner has to be aware of the truth - one moment after their max for that particular day comes samba or bo. and i am not proposing to go that far nor oboy did i guess oboy:"I agree that it is not a good idea to advice beginners to hold their breath till SAMBA or BO. My sentence sounded like that and for that I appologize. I am not advising anybody to have sambas or BOs....
I wanted to say that this method delivers the best results when you are able to get as close to your MAX as it gets (and stay conscious, of course)."


I have never had a samba or bo yet, but I know it can happen every time i push.

my experience is that I feel much cleaner after an attempt with no warm up. in my opinion to do a no warm up attempt is safer (for sure not easier) than an attempt with breath up = cheating the body with hyperventilation.

juka
 
I guess it all depends on what every person's goal is.

I've blacked out a couple of times but only in static training when I was trying to set new personal bests after a few years of competition experience.

I would agree that training to cheat the blackout has not much going for it from a training or psychological preparation perspective for someone just starting out. Many novice competitors practice exactly that and then have to deal with the mental shadow of blacking out in competition or in training. They and their buddies have to be ready for that and often are not.

Training for max on the first static doesn't mean you will be able to black yourself out. If you don't over breathe, it in fact may be one of the few ways to stay clear headed closer to your max for that day vs. any other method that I know of. Vasoconstriction will also be vital for success.

One last thing: For me the goal was to get as close to my intended time as possible but to also learn HOW to know that you are close enough to your max to pull up. Letting your natural breathing reflex do its thing was one method. Another was to do lots of near-100% effort statics. And, at some point, experiencing a samba or blackout with a good spotter did add to the progress in knowing my own body and allowed me to develop an early warning system that worked most of the time (I wouldn't call it a guarantee - my ears would start to ring as I got close to a big time, no doubt from rising blood pressure).

One more last thing :
What is this obsession with knowing our max for the day? You'll NEVER know. Even if you hold your breath until you blackout. That wasn't your max. Your max was a time you could only have reached when everything was perfect given an inifinite host of variables. Your max, in my opinion, is the actual time you make in your attempt. If you gave up early because the contractions were too hard, that was your max. If you started to get tunnel vision because of over ventilating, that was your max. Or put another way, we should be thinking about intensity and effort, instead.

You can only really go by how you feel and the time on the watch. Static apnea (the sport) is essentially about the final result. If I do 6:15 in competition clean and then tell everyone, that sucked, my max today was more like 9:15, it doesn't make any difference.

In my mind, if holding your breath longer is your goal, you are better off working at the following things:

-Gaining experience with long breath holds that really challenge you
-Learning how to actively relax your body and stay still for long periods of time before your attempt and during it
-Building good aerobic and anaerobic fitness
-Good rest and nutrition, especially if you are training/cramming for a competition. A lot of people burn out really fast.
-And above all, keeping track of how your body reacts to all of the above.

IMHO, of course and my three cents.

Pete
 
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Reactions: naiad
juka said:
how will you know it was your max then?
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By doing it. Without BO, of course. If you black out at 6:30, you cannot tell your PB or max is 6:29, or 6:20, or 6:00. You failed. And next time it can be completely different.

I feel that the freediving philosophy goes the wrong direction here. The main purpose of the sport is not setting new records, and winning competitions. That's only very small and rather unimportant part. The main purpose is (for me at least) the pleasure of diving. Increasing the performance is welcome, and setting new PB's is nice and motivating too, but not for the price of knocking myself out regularly. On my mind, blackout is a failure, a sad accident, and I do not consider it the necessary and unavoidable part of the sport. Well, accidents happen, but the problem with blackouts and sambas is that many freedivers here on DB consider them far too normal, and do not bother about them at all.

Fortunately, in France I rarely see this level of extremism. Having a samba in training is already considered serious incident here. And having a samba or BO at a competition is still not looked at well at all. Club that comes to a competition and half of their members get disqualified, will be looked at as "crazies". Fortunately, the main focus in freediving clubs here is not on setting records and winning competitions, but on teaching the safety, technique, relaxation, improving physical condition, and enjoying diving.

In our club there is around 50 freedivers, but only about 10% ever compete. During 5 years (4 sessions per week), there was only one single blackout during the training, and only couple of sambas (I know about 2). Well, it is true that most of us are just average intermediate freedivers, but still Fred Sarzier from our club was ranked very close to the French top in 2006 and should actually have been on the WCh in Egypt (he had to refuse for professional reasons). Even Fred, our #1, never blacked out, not even in a competition. And as far as I know he ever had only one smaller samba. So I really believe you can go pretty far without needing to K.O. yourself.
 
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I agree. I like to push the limits, but that doesn't mean I am blacking out all the time! There is no certain way to know the limit, that is why a good spotter is always necessary. When I do dry statics, I often go to near 100% (with adequate rest in between sessions).

There are many things I do that I wouldn't recommend to beginners (and that I didn't do when I was a beginner). That is why I think beginners should start off with the beginner threads, 'How to Start Freediving' etc, and not go straight into the advanced techniques such as packing, hard training and empty lung diving. I think we should be able to discuss these techniques freely, and direct beginners to a more appropriate thread.
 
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