Static with no warm-up

[trux]

yes, I totally agree. but not for static. what is static if not pushing for longer times and PBs?

What? Easy: learning to cope with hypoxia, hypercapnia, contractions, training your body to react with a quicker and stronger DR, learning deep and quick relaxation, learning the mental preparation, proper breathing, safety, but especially learning to listen to your body signals and being so able to hold your breath without blacking out. All that is much easier (especially for beginners) during a static training than at dynamics where you may be too focused on the physical part or on the distance to be able to care about the above mentioned aspects.

I am sorry, but static training is not at all about setting new PB - that's the last. Just a cherry on the cake. We have two wet static trainings a week, but only one max session per year, in the club. And that's quite sufficient. Who wants to compete, can take part on the numerous competitions, where he/she can set his/her new PB. That's not the purpose of the training.

Personally, I love static trainings. I'd compare them to lessons of yoga, with similar effects of relaxation and understanding your body and psychics. If you hate it, I suspect there is indeed something very wrong with your training methods. If you push yourself regularly to LMC or BO, then I am not surprised, though.

 

[juka]

If you hate it, I suspect there is indeed something very wrong with your training methods. If you push yourself regularly to LMC or BO, then I am not surprised, though.

yes, and if I don't like green colour, there is indeed something very wrong with my way of looking at things

btw, you seem to be reading my posts through some kind of glasses:

me : I don't like it that much
you : if you hate it......

me:I have never had a samba or bo yet, but I know it can happen every time i push.
you: if you push yourself regularly to LMC or BO, then I am not surprised, though

 

[trux]

Sorry, Juka, this was not addressed to you personally. I am sorry if you felt offended. It was addressed to all freedivers who advocate extreme breath-holds until BO, and consider the BO and LMC inavoidable part of the sport.

 

[juka]

no problem trux. i don't have any reason to feel offended.
just wanted to show, that there exist many different views on issues in freediving.
safe diving

 

[tylerz]

For any given day, I would say my max static is as long as I can hold my breath without having an LMC or BO. However, for the most part I can hold my breath until LMC/BO. There is not much use in having an LMC/BO and then in hindsight determining some arbitrary time of when the LMC/BO began to state that as your limit, since we can not know when we would have safely recovered. However, theoretically there is a point when your body entered the state of no return from LMC/BO, and therefore it seems theoretically accurate to claim that point is the exclusive limit, therefore the infinitely closest value prior to that limit is your "Max" if you have the tolerance to arrive there.

I think the argument here about max abilities is simply talking about different things. One is a theoretical max and the other is a moral max. They have no relation.

 

[SEDATE]

when we get BO , the brain notes it into a sector in brain(memory cortex) and when she find itself same condition again it first uses this coded info as a runaway point ..brain is complex but some times it is very simple and sometimes it is a little bit sutiped we all have be aware of it
mneanwhile, thnxs pete for info

 

[naiad]

Maybe there are just several different reasons for freediving. These could be:

1. Recreational open water diving, with no concern about time, distance or depth.

2. Spearfishing

3. Recreational pool diving

4. Competitive freediving, but not taking it too seriously

5. Serious competitive freediving, where the aim is to do extreme time, distance or depth.

I would say I do 3 and 4, hoping to do 1 and 5.

I don't think any of these is right or wrong, but that it can be hard to see others point of view.

Lucia

 

[naiad]

Back on topic...

Although the no warm-up static approach doesn't work for me, I do something similar for dynamic. My best dynamics are done with minimal preparation. I don't do any dry statics, relaxation or anything else. I just get in the pool, maybe do a few short distances, then a 2min breathe-up, then go. It is much harder without the breathe-up, so I usually do that.

Most people I know do some kind of warm-up for dynamic. Has anyone else tried the first-attempt approach?

Lucia

 

[perow1]

I do it, and i must say that i feel that you can reap more physiological advatages doing this in dynamic than in static.

I try not to get into the water until 1min before top and then go. Contractions and a general wish to quit starts at 1/4 of the total distance but in the end it is the burning lactic acid that is my main concern.

 

[naiad]

I thought the same. I haven't yet found anything to do before a dynamic that really helps, except the breathe-up that I already do.

Interesting that several freedivers have said that their struggle phase starts relatively early, at 1/4-1/2 of the total distance. For me it starts at about 3/4 of the total distance, or not at all. I try to avoid it altogether because it is much worse than the struggle phase of a static, and I don't know at all if I am near the limit. I don't have lactic acid pain during dynamic, and I don't think I have ever been very hypoxic at the end. I just feel very out of breath.

 

[perow1]

The lactic pain is a sign of your muscles doing anaerobic work and by doing that they are burning less oxygen.

 

[juka]

Back on topic...

Although the no warm-up static approach doesn't work for me, I do something similar for dynamic. My best dynamics are done with minimal preparation. I don't do any dry statics, relaxation or anything else. I just get in the pool, maybe do a few short distances, then a 2min breathe-up, then go. It is much harder without the breathe-up, so I usually do that.

Most people I know do some kind of warm-up for dynamic. Has anyone else tried the first-attempt approach?

Lucia

I started to do dynamic without any warm up and breath up last season and I really like it. it improved my performances and it feels better. but to reap all the benefits of this approach I go really slowly at the beginning of the dynamic till the first contraction. and also important is not to move at all for at least 5 minutes before the attempt.

 

[naiad]

I also try not to move for several minutes before a static or dynamic. This is why the no warm-up dynamic method works for me. Doing warm-up dynamics is moving around, which makes me tired, so I have to rest for several minutes, then I get cold and start shivering. All this can be avoided by just doing the dynamic with no warm-up.

 

[constantine]

one more question:
when i read the thread i would say that the central effect (not only)of the no warm up system is the better function of the spleen? ...
when my opinoin is right whats happens with it...? i gave some "extra blood"?

 

[trux]

when i read the thread i would say that the central effect (not only)of the no warm up system is the better function of the spleen? ...

I do not think than anyone suggested anything in this sense here. Spleen is only one of many parts of the mammalian diving reflex (DR), and with relatively small impact at humans. Unlike at seals, where the spleen is much bigger (both absolutely and relatively to the body size), at humans it is rather small. For example over 20l of blood cells can be released by the spleen at Weddell seals (at splenic compression of ~71%), while at humans the absolute spleen volume is 60-200ml (other sources claim 200-250ml) and only up to 50% is released during the contraction (but typically much less - as few as 0).

That told, the densely packed red blood cells stocked in spleen are certainly quite helpful during apnea, but there is no real advantage at a no-warm-up apnea - in fact the spleen typically contracts during the first 2 minutes of the apnea (and hence the cells may not be fully charged with oxygen yet), so actually some short warm-up may be more beneficial here - it would allow starting the breath hold with the extra hemoglobin already in body, and would also allow saturating it with oxygen beforehand.

The real purpose of no-warm-up is trying to get the optimal performance due to a quick and deep diving reflex while the body is still in resting mode, well sutured with oxygen and energy, and with minimum of waste products in blood and tissue (whose liquidation accelerates metabolism and consumes energy and oxygen).

When you do serial breath-holds, the DR is usually at the top after several attempts, but on the other hand, the body produces during the breath-holds a lot of anaerobic waste products. They need to be evacuated during the breath-up which keeps the metabolism rate high, and the body won't be optimally saturated with oxygen and perfectly cleaned of the waste products before you start the next breath hold.

It all means, the warm-up is a trade-off between strong DR (better with repetitive breath holds) and well rested, "clean" and charged organism (no warm-up at all). And of course there are many other factors that play important role - for example temperature, stress (may have positive effect), but especially psychics - they all can completely change the optimum threshold between no warm-up and long warm-up.

At breath-holds with physical effort, where the body produces much more acid lactic, CO2 and other waste products, than at static apnea the threshold is logically moved toward the no-warm-up method, because with intensive serial preparation the body gets tired (charged with waste products, and starved of oxygen) much faster. That's why you can read also here in this thread that although many freedivers like the no-warm-up method at dynamics, they usually achieve better results with some warm-up in statics.

Still, it is impossible to tell you what will work better for you - there are too many factors playing a role, so you will have to experiment. But keep on mind that not only it is quite individual, but also that external conditions can change it completely.

 

[wjohnson100]

I have been training for the last month using no warmup holds (personal best with no warmup holds, 6:21, 10 minutes after a hold of 4:30 a PB of 6:47--I got lazy on the first hold that day). I think some things need to be clarified about this method. First, while there are no warmup holds, there is a breathe up. The reason you need to have a breathe up plan is that you don't want to breathe too fast before a hold, and you also don't want to breathe too slow, hence the need for a plan, as opposed what is commonly referred to as "a shot in the dark", or in layman's terms, "dumb luck". You cannot just jump into the pool and do a 7 minute hold with no preparation at all. For me I try to do what I think I would do in competition:

1. Check in with the judges at least 45 minute prior to OT (Obviously N/A for a training hold). This is an arbitrary time I picked only because it fits the competition requirements and it seems to work for me.
2. Lie down and relax, breathing at some predetermined rate, for me this is about 5-6 breaths a minute. This is the breathing rate that will set up your blood chemistry optimally for the hold, so in general do it the same every time just like in practice, but also be prepared to modify your breathing based on how you feel that day.
3. Stretch as appropriate for you.
4. Whenever you can, get into the pool and move normally into the various zones (obviously N/A if you are training dry).
5. Your breathing rate is unchanged. Check how you feel 10 minutes before OT and modify your breathing rate as necessary. Your blood and tissues will be plenty oxygenated and your CO2 levels will be plenty low. The point at this time is not to go too low in CO2. For this you just have to have practiced to know how your body reacts to your breathing.
6. Whatever you do, don't drastically modify your breathe up on competition day based on something you have seen or heard. Changes bring on uncertainty and stress, the last think you need.
7. Regarding packs and purge breaths. Both of those things increase your heart rate. If you have been breathing properly you will be plenty oxygenated and remember, any air in your lungs is not much older than your last inhale. Packs also put pressure on the heart, increasing heart rate. For a static, I have found that ditching the packs and purge breaths helped me in my consistency and ultimately my hold times. Everyone is different in that regard. That is why it is not wise to assume that what works for one will work for all. Use what is safe and what works for you.

Remember, packing is extremely dangerous and can cause barotrauma, the same thing that can happen if a scuba diver holds his/her breath as he/she is rising to the surface and the lungs are expanding. Serious injury and death are possible. Exercise extreme care.

On another note, never train alone in the water!

8. Exhale fully on last exhale but not too rushed, remember you are trying to avoid any kind of stress. Rushing everything will not gain you any time but will stress you. The 2 or 3 seconds you will gain by blasting out your last breath you will lose by the amount of stress it causes and the amount of CO2 the muscle action produces. Remember, stress is the enemy. Same reason you don't want to have and argument with your significant other, fill out your tax forms, or get a speeding ticket before an important hold.
9. Inhale fully, hold, make sure you have fully inhaled. You will know how that should feel based on your training. That check is worth the extra second it takes, if you need it suck in some more air.
10. Whatever works for you during the hold to relax and not focus too much on the time. Remember that your blood will suck up more oxygen from your lungs than the CO2 it will give back because CO2 is very soluble in blood, so the volume of air in your lungs will drop somewhat, reducing the pressure you feel in your lungs. You will feel like you have not taken a full breath. The point to remember is that this is a normal process based on the laws of physics--you did take a full breath--so don't let it stress you.
11. Ultimately this method will get you more consistent blood chemistry/feeling at the beginning of the hold and that is what you are shooting for at the start of a hold I think--optimum chemistry along with optimum relaxation.
12. This whole process take about 45 minutes, of which the only strenuous part is the last couple of minutes of the hold. You ditch the other 7 holds of the CO2 table and get a maximum hold with only a couple of minutes of hard work. Too many benefits from this to mention.
13. Don't marry your breathe up. When you are training, don't feel guilty if you want to play with your breathe up to try to find something that works better. Just don't try to change in the middle of a competition.

A note on O2 and CO2. If you look at where the O2 in your body is stored. About 1/6th in the muscles and tissues, the rest in blood and lungs. If I can put an extra 1/6th into my body by not accumulating oxygen debt and CO2 excess in my muscles and tissues as a result of doing warmup holds, I will do it. That is one reason I think this method works. Your body starts the hold in the optimum state--max O2 in the blood, muscles, and tissues, a full breath of air in the lungs and low but not too low CO2 in the blood with minimum CO2 in the tissues and muscles. One thing to remember, your body is producing CO2 constantly during a hold. It has to go somewhere. First into your blood, with the amount there causing the feeling of needing to breathe and then leading to contractions. Second, into your lungs. If you have fresh air in your lungs at the start of a hold, this is the best you can do here. Ultimately there is a limit to how much CO2 you can put into your lungs. As CO2 partial pressure rises along with blood CO2 concentration. Less and less CO2 will pass into your lungs, and more and more will be retained in your blood. Third, it goes into your muscles and tissues. Remember that those are composed mainly of water, so CO2 is very soluble there (shake a coke bottle to see how soluble). So some amount of CO2 will end up in your muscles and tissues. This is one reason I think that it is good to have low muscle/tissue CO2 when you start a hold. Same reason you don't want to swim laps during a static. The more places to put CO2 other than blood, the better it will be for you during the hold, because for all practical purposes, there is no limit to how much CO2 your blood will hold (check the coke bottle above). Your lung capacity will be determined by heredity and your training, not much you can do to change it on any particular day other than to stretch properly. Just make sure you take a full breath. Your breathe up is what prepares the chemistry of your blood, tissues, and muscles, so it is very important, and the same reason not to change it too much on competition day. You already know what works for you before you go to the competition. If Tom Sietas gives you a hot tip during a competition, wait till you are training to try it out.

Anyway these are my bonehead theories based on my limited experience, what I have read, a little knowledge of chemistry, and some common sense. Hope this helps someone.

Walter Johnson

 

[demasoni]

Hey Walter,

Interesting post. How many no warm up holds do you do per session while training?

 

[Waterenthusiast]

Thanks Walter, very interesting post
You mentioned that for you a max breathhold can't be done by just hopping into the pool and holding your breath right away, and i totally agree on that. I also tried to play a bit on static preparation routines, and found out that the well going of my breatholds are much more influenced by the amount of time i spend relaxing before an attempt, than by any warm up breathhold i could perform beforehand. In my case i pin pointed the issue of statics to the relaxing state i'm in or not. Perhaps because my PB's are not equal to a maximum breathold regarding the amount of oxygen left, but more by my abbility to accept and tolerate the urge to breathe / contractions.( PB is still at 5'18" and not moving )

my 2cents for this morning

Christophe

 

[wjohnson100]

Hi, thanks for the replies.

As an example, in the last two weeks my holds have been, 5:36, 6:01, 6:03, 6:12, 6:00, 6:08, 5:30 (second session that day), 6:04, 6:04, holiday, 6:47 (10 min after 4:30 aborted hold), 6:01 (intentionally did one warmup hold of 5:00 then ten minute further breathe up then final hold), 6:10, 6:12, holiday today. I think if you do more than one hold in a short period, say an hour (an arbitrary time), hard to know if the first hold is helping your second hold. At least at first I would say that in general, doing more than one hold per session is not training the body to do what you want it to do, i. e. max dive reflex, min time. Usually I do one hold per day though (again an arbitrary number, just too lazy to do more than one session). Before I tried this breathe up method, my holds were all over the place. Much more consistent lately. Of course, further improvements in the breathe up are possible, even likely. Also, I think I can do better if I take more days off, but lately I was just trying to own the 6:00 mark and establish some consistency. I think on a good day, 7:00 is accessible. The key for me I think is to be willing to experiment, not marry a particular method, keep what works, and ditch what doesnt work. I think you are right also, the length of time you relax is very important, I think because it helps decrease your overall metabolic rate and reduces the metabolic byproducts remaining in your system at the beginning of a hold. I think breathing rate is very important too, in terms if relaxation, blood and tissue gas management. I am not sure if I have the optimum rate yet, but in general I would say that slower is better, as long as when the hold starts, you have good O2 saturation, minimum tissue CO2 levels, and nominal blood CO2 levels. If I had my choice, I would have a machine to measure O2 saturation levels and CO2 blood concentration. Unfortnately I still haven't found that rich uncle. You will know if your blood CO2 is too low, I think because you will start feeling lightheaded or strange in the head in some way with some tingling in your hands. I usually try to arrive at the beginning of a hold with no low CO2 feelings other than maybe in my hands. If I think my CO2 is going too low, I reduce my breathing rate accordingly. Likewise if I am toward the end of my breathe up and not feeling even close to low CO2, I increase my breathing rate. During the 10 minute breathe up before my 6:47 hold, I felt like no matter how fast I was breathing, it wasn't fast enough. Still I only went to about 7 breaths per minute. It was a strange hold. I didn't feel particularly right all the way through it, it was just that that feeling lasted longer than normal, otherwise known as "a good day." Usually on a 6 minute hold, I am just trying to pass the time the first 5 minutes. The hold is not difficult at all until my contractions start around 4:30 - 5:00. After that my biggest problem is focusing on the hold and not the clock. Of note, I have only been doing this training method for a month, so obviously my experience is limited, so feel free to point out where I am totally off base. Many of you have much more experience and have tried more different things than I have.

Regards,

Walt

 

[Kars]

Intresting post Wjohnson100,

I see that I have much similairities in my method.
For me it's basically this:

6 hours of no food, being hydrated.
Have a good muscle warmup and mild stretch, inclusing packstretching.
Suit up, with plenty of soap.
Lay on my back in the water, breathing very slow but a natural pace. During this I visualise breathing through my forhead. While this I visualise my body becomming havy and slow. After a while, 10-15 min, I get a sensation of my limbs and body becomming indeed energised and light, like a light is shining from within. Upon this I signal my buddy to move me twards my favourite spot in the pool.
Here I signal the final countdown of something like 3-4 minutes.
During this I focus on breathing through my forehead, where the speed of the air travelling through my airways follows a slow sinus like curve.
At 2min before Official top, I hyperventilate, breathing deep but not fast.
at 20 sec befor OT I start breating out my last breath, at 10 befor OT I breath in , at 5 I pack up to an comfortable 80%. Hopefully at OT I bring over my right hand over my left shoulder and roll over.

When I'm under I usually do a quick check making sure there is no tension and my heart runs slowly and lightly. Listening to the heart is nice distraction when I have a lot of things on my mind.
Usually I get my first light contractions somewhere between 2:30 and 3.
Lately I have not practiced static, but in general I do it after a long and intence training session swimming with monofins, without fins, having fun dives in the 5m pool, blowing bubblerings, practicing negative dives to - 5m with my buddy.

Today I did a 5:30, in hindsight I was nowhere near my limits and like to push it furter next time. The empty lungs I did about 15min afterwards was an fairly easy 1:50, a pretty good dive and feeling giving me confidence.

My PB is still 6:50 from now two years ago, and I would love to make it to the 7' regeon. That might also be enough for an place at WC finals in slovenia

I hope you find something usefull here,

Love Peace and water!

Kars,

BTW, I wouldn't do a dayly max, It would wear me out to much, and may create a mental barrier or bad association I don't want to have with breathhold