2015 LUNOCET PRO

[Kars]

Hi Marco, hartzliche dank für diesen erste Unterwasser Video von diese Monoflosse!

tip: swim along the pool line, so you can keep looking down, even a bit backwards, with about 4 fingers of space between your chin and chest. This allows for a much more streamlined position, better glide, and easier back and hip movements. tip2: keep your toes strait towards the rear.

I agree it's about doing. And I know it's hard to make such a deceivingly simple looking device. I'm just praying Ted can change a few of his ways to accommodate his very supportive and extremely patient customers. I hope in future products he'll first develop in private with testers a product to a level he can produce and instantly ship with confidence, not selling the hide before the bear is shot.

Thanks Ted for the peep, I hope you can gather the courage to recognise and change some of your ways, just like you're improving your designs.

Love, Courage and water,

Kars

 

[Kervyn Koa Wing]

I really hope that all of you try to imagine what does it mean to engineer and build something like this! Even if this Luno Pro2015 is not as good as someone thought... How long was Ted working an engineering on? Compare to how long has it take untill we drive in fast and secure Cars? Keep always in mind, to criticise someone / something mean you should be able to make it better. Words have a lot of power, but who have this power to make it without words?
here`s me again, getting faster...

You are missing the point Marco. The point is you don't make promises that you know you can't deliver on, over and over again. Do you think so many of us would have spent their hard earned cash on this equipment if they didn't believe in the design itself? We are not questioning his skills as an inventor or his engineering skills. We are questioning the communication with his customers and how that whole issue with this design fault on the spring and the production issues were handled (and delivery times and whatever else problem we are not aware of).

We understand things go wrong when you are innovating, but it's important to communicate and give realistic timeframes, and not keep the clients who have put their faith in his products, in limbo. I understand that he doesn't really have time to answer each client over the same issues over and over again. But then, he can post on his website for all to see, saves him time, and keeps everyone informed of what's really happening (he does use an auto reply btw!) . And I'm sorry, going through people who have talked to him on the phone is not a good way to get information!

Of course all the people who have bought the, so far virtual Lunocet Pros, can't do better (engineering and manufacturing wise). Otherwise we would have no need to buy it from Mr. Ciamillo! And we are criticising on something any one of us could have 'made it better' i.e handled the communication and the process better, because that's what it really is about, and not the end product itself.

I'm sorry, but many of us don't keep a blind faith in someone (nor should any one!) when they have been mislead so many times and over such a long time.

If I use your car argument, would you accept buying a car, and after 5 months, no sign of the car, or when it's going to be delivered? What if you had already sold you car and had no other means of transportation? Or your previous car was out of commission, and you were buying a replacement?

In my case, my monofin broke (Leaderfin hyper pro), and I was going to buy a similar replacement when I decided to make the leap of faith in the Lunocet. I had, before ordering, asked what the lead times were, and was told 10 days, and ordered based on this information . And I've been 5 months ish without any mono now! and the info about replacement of my broken monofin was communicated with Mr. Ciamillo before I ordered!

I have received an e-mail that I was going to receive tracking info 2 days ago, and I'm still waiting for it...

 

[noa]

I really hope that all of you try to imagine what does it mean to engineer and build something like this! Even if this Luno Pro2015 is not as good as someone thought... How long was Ted working an engineering on? Compare to how long has it take untill we drive in fast and secure Cars? Keep always in mind, to criticise someone / something mean you should be able to make it better. Words have a lot of power, but who have this power to make it without words?
here`s me again, getting faster...

Hello Marco,
If you wish to constructively contribute here, you might want to start by actually educating yourself as to the ongoing situation. A good first step would be to read the 2014, followed by the 2015 threads from their beginning...
Thank you and happy swimming.

 

[Ted Ciamillo]

The Pros are shipping every day. I did complete my parts for the 30 over the weekend and have shipped 10 since Monday. So the flow has started.

Let me shed some light on the delays and the process by which I communicate. First, I don't like running off at the mouth so I apologize again for the lack of communication. The incorrect time estimates were never intentional. The design at the point of the estimate had no indication of additional work needed to fulfill the quoted estimate. But then I got some feedback (from my own experimentation or from customer experience) which changed things. I didn't go and report this immediately after it happened each time which may have been the best thing to do. I have said this before...I am a perfectionist; I like dealing with absolutes; not "wild-assed guesses". I don't like the know-it-all attitude and listen to feedback from my customers.

The 2014 Lunocet Pro was evaluated by several people including competitive freedivers to be on par with the Hyperfin when used as a tool in freediving. The spring on the 2014 made this status in performance only temporary. As the spring fatigued so did the performance. Vernon Scholey, who set a national record with the 2014 Pro called me and said the fin performed so well when he first got it that he was confident he could use it in competition. However, he noticed a waning of power before the competition but used it anyway to set the national record. Jeff Watson, another competitive freediver and reviewer of the 2014 Pro said he initially felt the unit was on par with the Hyperfin and would be using it exclusively. Kurt Chambers said the same thing... but then the spring lost power.

Jeff Watson, Richard Matthews, Chip Littlejohn, Marco Werner, Fernando Pereira provided valuable feedback and I listened intently to them. I focused on the concensus of ideas... those ideas about improvement that seemed to be a common thread among them. I worked to optimize the strengths and eliminate the weaknesses. We're there I think!

I believe I have the absolute best monofin in the world right now but breaking records will prove that... when that happens the records will speak for me. In the meantime, please hang in there guys and thank you so much for your patience! All of this is taking us to more advanced underwater mobility.

 

[Ichthys]

Correct me if I'm wrong, Ted, but you just described the transition from the 2014 Pro to the 2015 Pro... I think it's great that you found that issue and released the 2015 Pro, but I think quite a few of us came on-board as of the 2015 Pro believing it to be a production product... Welcome to 3 months ago?

 

[Marco_W]

@ Kars, thank you very much! for something like this i was waiting for, getting some good tips!
@all, let us keep looking forward and not backwards, o.k.?
for example,how we can meet us all somwhere sometime making a deeperblue Hydrotour all with LunoPro`s...
What you think?

 

[Ted Ciamillo]

Ichthys... you are correct. I am very sorry for the delays.

 

[Ichthys]

I appreciate the apology, Ted. But hell, I know all of these delays impact you too. I really just want to be leveled with. I felt your post failed to address the last 2-3 months. To that end, however, I will be satisfied with the apology. What I would like--and I don't think I'm the only one--is to know approximately how much longer we're looking at for the build and shipping process here, giving yourself a reasonable cushion for delays, of course. I don't want a small number, I want something to give me a ball-park idea of how much longer I might be waiting (using my own estimate regarding where I stand in line), so that I can look forward to it and not be on edge as much as the days progress. With this first production run discussed here, we're all left wondering, "am I one of 30? or one of 200?" We would all love to circle a day/week/month to when Lunocet 2015 Pro production will be caught up to become current, instead of crossing off days as we go. Cheers.

 

[Ichthys]

@all, let us keep looking forward and not backwards, o.k.?
for example,how we can meet us all somwhere sometime making a deeperblue Hydrotour all with LunoPro`s...
What you think?

A little premature, perhaps, but an awesome idea!

 

[Kervyn Koa Wing]

New issue with the Lunocet pro:
Quoting Mr. Ciamillo:
"Simply the second pin needed a retaining ring. I am going to take some pics and post it later. The first pin is captured by the flukes.. the second was designed with a press fit on the bushing inside the rubber. However, over time the pin has started to walk out. The fix is simple ... two retaining e-clips on either side. This is being outfitted now and will be resolved on all the units this week."

Hoping this will genuinely be a real quick fix, and our long awaited fins will be on their way... ... ...

 

[noa]

New issue with the Lunocet pro:
Quoting Mr. Ciamillo:
"Simply the second pin needed a retaining ring. I am going to take some pics and post it later. The first pin is captured by the flukes.. the second was designed with a press fit on the bushing inside the rubber. However, over time the pin has started to walk out. The fix is simple ... two retaining e-clips on either side. This is being outfitted now and will be resolved on all the units this week."

Hoping this will genuinely be a real quick fix, and our long awaited fins will be on their way... ... ...

Are you quoting this, from a direct conversation you had with Ted ?

 

[Kervyn Koa Wing]

Hello Noa,

Long story short, he was supposed to send me shipping info 3 days ago, and when I didn't receive anything, I emailed him, and he mentioned there was a bug! I asked what that bug was, and how long it would take to resolve, and that was the reply I got...

 

[Kervyn Koa Wing]

Again, I should not have been the one running after him to know what's happening... But for once, he acknowledged something was wrong..so I guess minor improvement...

 

[noa]

Again, I should not have been the one running after him to know what's happening... But for once, he acknowledged something was wrong..so I guess minor improvement...

Thanks for letting us know. I hope the fins that have been apparently shipped earlier this week, have this issue fixed.
This is beginning to confirm a suspicion I have had regarding the new model. Before stating it however, I want to be clear that this is pure speculation on my part and that I am most likely wrong (and hope to be so).

When I saw the drawings of the latest 2015 version, I could not help but feel that the design issues the previous model had had not actually been addressed. An extra part had been added, in hopes of remedying an issue with the spring design and material. Keep in mind of course that this is the central part of the whole system. If this does not function properly, nothing else will.
From an engineering point of view it just added more parts that could break and fail the system. In my view, a good design needs as few parts as possible and this one has just gotten even more complicated.
The reason the 2015 fin has not shipped yet is that there have been other bugs, along with the one you have just mentioned. That is actually perfectly normal, and obviously part of the development process. However it leaves one to wonder, is the fin actually ready to ship to customers or does it still need testing so we do not repeat the 2014 Pro scenario where the customers ended up being the testers, at their own expense.
Again, I wish to be clear that this is only my own limited point of view, having followed developments since the beginning. It is in no way my intention to speak negatively of the great efforts that Ted is making in creating a very forward thinking fin.

 

[Ichthys]

On a side--but equally negative--note, I found out last night that my little brother's friend "froggy" received his monofin ahead of me. "Damnit froggy!!" If you ask me these frogs are getting a little out of hand, and I blame Chip and Marginatus for the encouragement...

 

[noa]

On a side--but equally negative--note, I found out last night that my little brother's friend "froggy" received his monofin ahead of me. "Damnit froggy!!" If you ask me these frogs are getting a little out of hand, and I blame Chip and Marginatus for the encouragement...

Yeah, these guys are notorious for jumping the queue ! He must have surely bribed Ted...
Having said that, it looks like he's testing out an ultra secret, yet to be revealed prototype. Looking forward to hearing more about that one : )

 

[neurodoc]

Ok, so I realize some of you don't like getting second-hand info from me...I totally understand that! but, if Ted were to stay on the forum and/or take calls from all of us he would be even farther behind on production. Since he takes my calls and sometimes calls me to pass on information, I feel it is better for the group if I just pass on what I know and what I've been told directly. It's the most current info available at the moment!

I've been following this pretty closely and actually feel the opposite-the 2014 Pro issues have been addressed. I may have used the 14 pro more than anyone else, having reinforced the spring with a "chip exo spring" so that I could keep using it 3-5x per week. Chip has used his classic even more than I have, but only recently got a Pro14 as he gave his first one away to someone who needed it more urgently. He has done that again with his '15, by the way! I've been (along with some other users) giving Ted lots of feedback on what I felt the issues were, and he has addressed every one:

1. Spring adjustment holes too close together, resulted in stretching and eventual tearing between holes.
-15 spring has three adjustment holes instead of four, giving more rubber between holes

2. Spring adjustment pins would slowly migrate laterally until they came out of the holes
-15 spring is designed with adjustment holes that are tapered with a smaller hole in the center, and pins also "dumbell shaped" so that they are a bit thinner in the middle than the ends and lock into the spring better.

3. Flukes were too stiff for sustained swimming and lost some efficiency compared to "classic" flukes, and were somewhat mismatched to the possible spring resistance. Too much fluke, not enough spring. It's really fast with a beefed up spring, but still not as efficient.
-15 flukes have a different profile to harness the best of both designs, classic and 14pro. Will be easier to swim and also more efficient than either, particularly with the bigger spring that has more meat to handle the extra surface area compared to the Classic. A much more balanced and efficient fin!

4. Spring itself was being damaged during hard kicks or sprints due to over-flexing of the pivot hole, resulting in the dreaded "dead spot" that several users including myself experienced.
-15 spring has the double pivot, effectively halving the degree of flexure that happens at each hole and reducing the force applied on each pivot pin by half as well. The spring itself is also much bigger,both in diameter and length, providing more strength where needed. The curing process has also been improved, resulting in a more homogenous/durable rubber casting

5. Marco, who had the first 15pro, noticed that the second pivot pin was not captured adequately due to the extra length of the new spring/pivot unit.
-all other 15 pro pivot pins have clips on the ends to prevent them from sliding out of the pivot.

So, that summarizes what I know about the 2015 Pro Lunocet and why it is a significant improvement on the 2014 Pro and accurately addresses the issues swimmers experienced with the 2014 Pro.

While the delay for those who never received their 2014 Pro certainly seems lengthy and unacceptable, perhaps seeing the updates may help to see that a much better fin will be received! Having used the 14Pro as much as I have, I can say I would greatly prefer the 15 model if I were to choose between the two. When I get my 15, I will post pix of the two side-by-side.

#5 above is the reason for the added delay over the most recent shipping estimate. This update has been completed and is no longer a source of delay.

Soon we will be writing about swimming with the new fin!

 

[Chipswim]

Doc!
I think you've beautifully described that the spring problem was a bit larger and more multi legged when confronted head on! I know Ted feeds you the hot info BECAUSE it saves him time writing. You relay it efficiently. Extra nice of course to read the recent post he wrote himself. Thank you both. I feel much more up to date. Think the solutions you describe are legitimate as are Noa's reservations till we see for ourselves.

I did just return from swimming the exoed 14 pro. Love the thing!

"Godzilla" as I've named it really challenged me for a month. The smaller flukes of the classic never made me sore muscle wise. The additional power transfer through the larger flukes made me feel like I was wearing a mermaid suit of sore muscles. Now I'm strong.

Because of my size I've been suspicious this super stiff 2014 pro might be the perfect Luno for me. I was hell bent on trying one so gently persuaded Noa to let me use his. I'm totally thrilled with it every morning so very comfortably asked Ted to get caught up then send me a 15.

 

[Kervyn Koa Wing]

Ok, so I realize some of you don't like getting second-hand info from me...I totally understand that! but, if Ted were to stay on the forum and/or take calls from all of us he would be even farther behind on production. Since he takes my calls and sometimes calls me to pass on information, I feel it is better for the group if I just pass on what I know and what I've been told directly. It's the most current info available at the moment!

I've been following this pretty closely and actually feel the opposite-the 2014 Pro issues have been addressed. I may have used the 14 pro more than anyone else, having reinforced the spring with a "chip exo spring" so that I could keep using it 3-5x per week. Chip has used his classic even more than I have, but only recently got a Pro14 as he gave his first one away to someone who needed it more urgently. He has done that again with his '15, by the way! I've been (along with some other users) giving Ted lots of feedback on what I felt the issues were, and he has addressed every one:

1. Spring adjustment holes too close together, resulted in stretching and eventual tearing between holes.
-15 spring has three adjustment holes instead of four, giving more rubber between holes

2. Spring adjustment pins would slowly migrate laterally until they came out of the holes
-15 spring is designed with adjustment holes that are tapered with a smaller hole in the center, and pins also "dumbell shaped" so that they are a bit thinner in the middle than the ends and lock into the spring better.

3. Flukes were too stiff for sustained swimming and lost some efficiency compared to "classic" flukes, and were somewhat mismatched to the possible spring resistance. Too much fluke, not enough spring. It's really fast with a beefed up spring, but still not as efficient.
-15 flukes have a different profile to harness the best of both designs, classic and 14pro. Will be easier to swim and also more efficient than either, particularly with the bigger spring that has more meat to handle the extra surface area compared to the Classic. A much more balanced and efficient fin!

4. Spring itself was being damaged during hard kicks or sprints due to over-flexing of the pivot hole, resulting in the dreaded "dead spot" that several users including myself experienced.
-15 spring has the double pivot, effectively halving the degree of flexure that happens at each hole and reducing the force applied on each pivot pin by half as well. The spring itself is also much bigger,both in diameter and length, providing more strength where needed. The curing process has also been improved, resulting in a more homogenous/durable rubber casting

5. Marco, who had the first 15pro, noticed that the second pivot pin was not captured adequately due to the extra length of the new spring/pivot unit.
-all other 15 pro pivot pins have clips on the ends to prevent them from sliding out of the pivot.

So, that summarizes what I know about the 2015 Pro Lunocet and why it is a significant improvement on the 2014 Pro and accurately addresses the issues swimmers experienced with the 2014 Pro.

While the delay for those who never received their 2014 Pro certainly seems lengthy and unacceptable, perhaps seeing the updates may help to see that a much better fin will be received! Having used the 14Pro as much as I have, I can say I would greatly prefer the 15 model if I were to choose between the two. When I get my 15, I will post pix of the two side-by-side.

#5 above is the reason for the added delay over the most recent shipping estimate. This update has been completed and is no longer a source of delay.

Soon we will be writing about swimming with the new fin!

You are basically confirming Noa's suspicions... The Lunos were never properly tested, and the first users were guinea pigs, with other early buyers funding the whole thing... and having to wait patiently next to a praying candle that what they paid for finally arrives...

Personally, I have not seen Santa yet... and until I do...Santa is just a myth...!!!

 

[Kervyn Koa Wing]

Ok new update...Mr Ciamillo no longer wants to send me my Luno...Suddenly wants to refund after 5 months + of me waaitinng like a gullible victim...Cos I basically was telling a truth that he didn't like!

EXCELLENT...!!!