Static with no warm-up

[O'Boy]

Exactly what I just wanted to mention, Ben. The peripheral chemoreceptors are sensitive to changes in PaO2. If it drops below 60mmHg that will cause breathing reflex.
From what I've red the central receptors in medulla are sensitive to an increase in H+, that's what they are able to detect. Could you please explain, in which form the CO2 is able to cross blood/brain barrier? Dissolved or as a carbaminohemoglobin?
I believe, the real contractions are caused by combination of low PaO2 and high PaCO2, yet I don't understand why I don't get them while performing max exhale static. There surely is my PaO2 lower then 60mmHg.

What interests me also is Tom's exhaling in the end of static. I know that's an old story and I recently wanted to find some physiological point in it. Is it possible that exhaling in the end of static may increase PAO2 and thus PaO2 too? If so, maybe that's why he is so unbelievebly fresh after surfacing. It is PaO2 which decides of our consciousness.

Right now I'm taking 3 days rest and then I will (hopefully) continue to push my PB further
I'm glad to see more people trying this method. Keep posting your results.

 

[Ben Gowland]

The 'brain CO2' is produced in the CNS as dissolved CO2 or H+ (and HCO3-) [an equilibrium]. This then enters the blood and some becomes bound to Hb and becomes Carbaminohaemoglobin. This is 'locked' [not really - just a shift in equilibrium] in the blood until the pH drops (normally in the lungs).

 

[Oligo]

Thanks for adding Ben and O'Boy. But do remember that paO2 and SaO2 are still somewhat related. If your paO2 is 60mmHg, then depending of paCO2, your SaO2 can be anything from 95% (very low paCO2) to 85% (very high paCO2). Thus you can hyperventilate all you want, but the carotid and aortic bodies will not fire above SaO2 95%. So they cannot be responsible for initiating the dive response.

 

[kingohyes]

Hi ADR, I am also in a "down" period, I have taken a break because of cold, and now my times are horrible. But I am able to withstand 80 contractions which is 30-40 more than I have ever done on training..

 

[efattah]

I firmly believe it is possible to see splenic contraction in changes on the SaO2 graph. On my first breath-hold of a session, my SaO2 drops very gradually after 4'30" or 5'00". On later breath-holds, the drop of SaO2 at that point is much faster. If the spleen contraction were happening around then, it would slow the rate of decline of SaO2.

If the spleen blood was only 75% saturated with O2, and if it is true that the spleen contracts very early in the breath-hold, then you would see the spleen contraction on the oximeter as a SUDDEN DROP in SaO2, since the 95% saturated blood would suddenly be flooded with 75% saturated hemoglobin, causing a sudden drop in SaO2. Since this doesn't happen, then either the spleen contracts later, or the spleen blood is highly saturated with O2.

 

[Ben Gowland]

Eric - wouldn't splenic blood have to go to the lungs before it gets to your ear (I presume that's where your oximeter is placed)?

i.e. - it will first mix and equilibrate with other venous blood and then equilibrate in the lungs.

 

[Oligo]

I firmly believe it is possible to see splenic contraction in changes on the SaO2 graph. On my first breath-hold of a session, my SaO2 drops very gradually after 4'30" or 5'00". On later breath-holds, the drop of SaO2 at that point is much faster. If the spleen contraction were happening around then, it would slow the rate of decline of SaO2.

Without an ultrasound imager to prove that your spleen contracts as late as 4:30-5:00 during your first apnea, it is very hard to dispute the findings of Bakovic et. al.: the spleen contracts right at the beginning of apnea as part of the diving response. There may be other explanations for your observations, completely unrelated to the spleen.

 

[ADR]

Eric, I'll see what i can find with the pulse oximeter.....not that you will see me doing 5mins as a first static without warmup or breatheup! I did manage 110 contractions with this new approach yesterday. This is 60 more than previous contractions PB....if there is such a thing.

Not very keen on quoting myself but has anyone got an answer to:
"When Tom did his recent nofins record, did he use the same prep (ie no warmup no breatheup)?"


regards

Andy

 

[O'Boy]

I believe Tom applies this "No warm-up" approach on dynamic too.

Yesterday I did another max hold. After 4 days of rest, I expected new PB, yet was a bit disappointed with the result. I could hit just one minor PB and that was in # of contractions (50). The times were terrible and the rate of contractions was higher then normal.

5'32" (@1'46", 50 contractions in 3'46")

The causes? Maybe:
- 4 days brake is too long - my body is not yet fully adapted and this is a new start (This hold looks exactly like my first one with this method, but this time I managed to withstand 35 contractions more.
- The 'rest' wasn't real rest - I started with cardio training again and the day before max static I did hard dynamic training.

We'll see what I can do today.

 

[naiad]

I don't find that any kind of warm-up helps much with dynamic. This could be because I need to improve other things - my PBs are 33m without fins and 40m with fins. :head

Lucia

 

[ADR]

I don't know how you guys are getting those times!!

My latest no warm up no breathe up effort was :
3:01 (@ 1:01, 121 contractions in 2:00)

I bought one of those thumb wheel counters today to make counting easier.

...boy does my body seem to like doing contractions even if my head hates them.

I'm going to give dynamic a go with this approach tonight......

Andy

 

[O'Boy]

Hey,

machine is still working...

6'15" (@1'46", 55 contractions in 4'29")

It's a bit harder work now, to get such time. My contractions rate is still somewhat higher then it was. Interestingly, while recovering from this hold I got 2 more contractions. It's very funny feeling to get contractions even when breathing.

ADR, keep trying. My first hold with this method was 3'19" (@1'44", 15x).
Maybe you should do more holds (3-4), not just one. It surely is not enough of a stimulus for your body. Then, when you will be able to reach near your PB in the first hold, you won't need more holds.

 

[kingohyes]

Im using this approach on the dynamics. How long should I rest in between each max dynamic?
And how many repetitions would be ideal?

Any ideas??

kingohyes

 

[O'Boy]

This approach requires max effort. That means just one max dynamic. If I could not reach good performance in my first try, I would rest about 10 minutes and then try again.
I think, more important in dynamic is technique and interval training.

So my dynamic training looks like this:
- 1 max dynamic (2 or 3, if you can't reach near your PB)
- working on proper technique
- interval training

 

[kingohyes]

So when you are doing interval training, are you shortening the rest between each dynamic? And how many percent of max are you doing?

 

[O'Boy]

I'm concentrating on anaerobic work. That means "teaching" my muscles to work under special conditions with less O2 supply and higher accumulation of lactate.

I do fast sprints - 5 x 50m with longer rests.
somewhat slower - 10x50m (16x50m :blackeye ) with shorter rests.

I'm not using dynamic as a medium for apnea training. I believe, static and apnea walking will make the work.

 

[kingohyes]

So, using this method in dynamic.. How long will it take for the CO2 rate to become normal.. Is it bad to do dynamics when you have a high rate of CO2 (i.e in interval training)?

Sorry for my ignorance


Kingohyes

 

[efattah]

O'boy,

Congratulations on another pb -- you have become, to my knowledge, only the 2nd person to ever get contractions after starting to breathe -- Martin Stepanek got that on his 8'06" world record, and he had to explain to the judges that it wasn't a diaphragmatic samba.

I wish you had an etCO2 monitor so we could see your final lung CO2 level.

 

[derelictp]

Hi

After a long brake (a bad cold) I did an attempt today. I did 10min of sub neutral breathing (= for me slight overventilation). No warmup.

Contractions from 2'12'', I managed 67 contractions before I quit at 5'01'', a new "contraction pb" in both time and number. The contractions was not so ugly but I felt hypoxic and I had a strange taste in my mouth in the end :hmm .

 

[efattah]

Let me guess, you had a 'metallic' taste, i.e. the taste of metal....